5181: The Tale of A Tail? WW1 German Air Victory

[Rick Research]

This one has kept me awake lip-chewing for many years. In an album taken by a Pioneer Unteroffizier:

This Allied WW1 aircraft was obviously downed by the two senior NCO German aviators among the crowd of curious ground pounders, Feldgendarme, etc:

Is it British? Is it French? WHAT is it? And could the tail number tell the tell of WHEN it was downed... and who was in it?

[DAK Rommel]

Are those french national colours on the back of the tail, ?

im not sure, maybe im seeing things.

DAK 'Rob' Rommel

[DAK Rommel]

Im sure its French or Belgian,
Also, the tail assembly looks similar to some Spads I have seen

DAK 'Rob' Rommel

[Tony Farrell]

That's an RFC Royal Aircraft Factory BE2c. If it's been brought down then there will be a record of it somewhere, and who was in it. This is going to be an utter git of a job, but not impossible - presuming the crew (2) would've been casualties. The serial number is the key - squadron allocation, area, dates, times & laundry receipts etc. I shall make a note of it for the next time I go swanning off to Hendon.

[Rick Research]

Thanks Tony! There don't appear to be casualties, at least not IN theat crumpled mess: it appears to have gone "smaaack" though-- no signs of flames etc.

[Theodor]

The tail looks very similar to the tail of Morane-Saulnier BB.
Also, Maurane-Saulnier BB number 5181 was lost on august 2nd 1916. Rick, any clues for the date of the picture?

Here is a MS BB, with quite a close number, I think the tail is quite the same. The pictue must be credited to this great site: http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/

[Rick Research]

Ahh-HA! The Unteroffizier saved up photos and used them to write long multiple part letters back home to his girlfriend. This series was dated 1/1/17, so end of 1916 fits.

So: for the -- who were the crew, and who shot them down?

[Tony Farrell]

I am seriously impressed! Again, Theodor gets the cigar. It does indeed appear to be a Morane BB. In fact, it cannot be anything else, as they were only used by the RFC and that is an RFC serial number. I don't know where you pulled that information from Theodor, but I'm really impressed. If you have a date, then there will be an a/c allocation that will provide the crews' names. That is one obscure aeroplane type to ID. What a forum!


TF

[Theodor]

hehe Thanks! I think from such threads it may seem that I am more clever than I am in fact
I do not have too much knowledge, but rather know where to ask /this is quite important! / and then search through the answers that I get.
I got the information about the Morane BB from the forum of this site:
http://www.theaerodrome.com/ A great site about the WWI aviation!!!

I asked there about the 5181 and in result one greatly informed man gave me a list of all aircraft that used to have this number:
5181 Morane BB
A5181 ?
B5181 Sopwith Camel
C5181 DH6
D5181 Armstrong Whitworth FK8
E5181 Bristol F2b
F5181 Sopwith Camel
H5181 Avro 504K
J5181 Avro 504
N5181 Sopwith Pup

When I saw the name "Morane BB" in the list, a red light twinkled in my head, I had seen somewhere the Morane with exactly the same tail...
Lets hope more information will appear!

[Theodor]

A little earlier I posted information about this crash, but seems it was for another aircraft - serial 5177, a MS BB from the 60th Squadron, shot down by Wintgens.

So now changing my earlier theory with this theory:

Morane-Saulnier BB, number 5181, belonged to the 60th Squadron RFC. It crashed on 02 August 1916 to the North of St. Quentin, falling from 11 000 feet /probably cause - AAA fire/. The crew, Sgt A Walker and 2Lt LL Clark, were KIA.

I made a further reserach, in the archive of the Commonwealth War Graves Commision. According to them:
Serjeant Alexander Walker of the 60th Sq. RFC, from the UK, service No 2260, was KIA at the age of 22 on 02 August 1916
Second Lt. Lyonel Latimer Clark of the RFC, from the UK, was KIA at the age of 18 on 02 August 1916

I think the facts in this theory fit quite well...

[Rick Research]

BRAVO ! ! ! !

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VERY GOOD TIMING Theodor: we CAN crown you now and no Commissars! If things "go backwards" don't worry, we will make you the Hero Of People's Research!

My pioneer was indeed, indeed in the St. Quentin sector, and has NUMEROUS shots of before and after blowing things up around there!

BUT

"...from such threads it may seem that I am more clever than I am in fact
I do not have too much knowledge, but rather know where to ask /this is quite important!"


SSSSHHHH!!!! Do not give away Trade Secrets!!!

[Theodor]

Hahaha thanks Rick! But the crown will always be yours!!! /Rick -> / So I do not want the crown, maybe something much smaller... for me... maybe just a simple little ring... /mmmmy prrrrrrecioussssssssss/

Your pioneer's area of action gives a good prove to the story, I think