Para cap badge, as described or not?

[lnijherald]

Gentlemen,
I won the following item on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=250503190521

According to the seller it is:
1 silver (taken from the item description)
2 still in fantastic condition (again taken from the item description)
3 hallmarked (answer by seller to my question)

Ad 3: I asked the seller: Hi, how do you know it is silver? Is it hallmarked? His answer was: dont know for certain but man in medal shop said early ones like this were silver.there is a small hallmark on the back cant see what it is it needs an eye glass but it could be a lion.

I'm not happy and I opened a dispute with Paypal.

What is your opinion? Please keep it factual as I am going to show the topic to Paypal staff.

Thanks, Luc

[Gary Jucha]

Looks

looks like a normal para cap badge that has been broached !

[britpc]

I Agree.
It's an original KC beret badge that has been converted into a broach.
As usual this guy was economical with the Truth
There should have been a mention of the broach clasp on the rear of the badge, or a picture showing this. Especially after you asked about the back of the badge.
Regards
Irv

[RMR]

After a number of years as a cataloguer at an auction house I would say his description is misleading,hardly fantastic condition when the lugs have been removed and replaced with a brooch pin.As far as I am aware it is illegal to describe an item as silver if it does not have a hallmark it can only be described as white metal and I can see no trace of a mark of any kind on the back let alone a possible hallmark.Best of luck Roger

[Old Smelly]

A fairly basic description but as mentioned above, the badge you received is not silver, it's a standard capbadge that has had a brooch fitting added. It's illegal to sell any silver/gold etc as such without a hallmark
Lee

[force136]

Restrike

This again shows the importance of a book on strictly British airborne material of the Parachute Regiment. Unfortunately jewelers and badge companies in the UK sold out to the restrike artists. Opinions are not enough. What is needed is indepth research into the design, manufacture, procurement and issue of insignia. This can only be done if original items with solid prov are used. I am sure there is an abundence throughout the world. I have now counted at least a dozen restrike examples of the UK made officers badge for 1CPB. So someone or a group of boneheads in the UK are really active in trying to fool people. This includes examples in bronze, brass, white metal, bi-metal, silver, white metal in gilt, white metal marked with maker, silver marked with maker and assay marks some with sliders and others with lugs. Solid, semi-solid and stamped. There are now badges which are painted in silver and gold and at a recent show here in Ottawa a strange example made in the wartime style only an obvious attempt to deceive. All this from a badge worn for little over a year in silver and gilt. Any badge made privately in the UK could have and can still be restruck. So one has to wonder about any UK made badge outside of strictly ISSUE and even there you have to be careful. The only way to help collectors is for someone to get off their ass and catalogue examples that are known originals worn by known veterans that exist in various institutions and collections. It would then be possible to make a study of the various die types and pin down known wartime ( non restruck ) examples in white metal, silver or other metal types and to match markings. The same analysis should go for shoulder titles, formation signs etc.

It is just a shame that these very active restrike artists are continuing to ruin the hobby. While the thread was about this particular badge and the way it was listed. In future, if a comprehensive study is made, you may be able to ID badges simply by the die impression on the front. Warnings could also be added to any text regarding the possibility of existing restrikes of that die impression.

Anyway just my thoughts. I would love to do it, however I don't live in the UK and I don't collect British. I just think it odd that the info is there yet no one has made an effort. I was shocked when I realized no one in the UK had ever done any research into their own parachute badge. In fact no first hand research of the badge existed in any form until I printed it in my 1CPB book. I am sure if someone in the UK had the time, they could even improve on it. I always wondered why the Parachute units themselves never wondered? Very odd.

Ken

Gentlemen,
I won the following item on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=250503190521

According to the seller it is:
1 silver (taken from the item description)
2 still in fantastic condition (again taken from the item description)
3 hallmarked (answer by seller to my question)

Ad 3: I asked the seller: Hi, how do you know it is silver? Is it hallmarked? His answer was: dont know for certain but man in medal shop said early ones like this were silver.there is a small hallmark on the back cant see what it is it needs an eye glass but it could be a lion.

I'm not happy and I opened a dispute with Paypal.

What is your opinion? Please keep it factual as I am going to show the topic to Paypal staff.

Thanks, Luc

[Old Smelly]

All valid points and good ideas Ken but in Luc's case he has bought an original badge that has been brooched and is not silver as the seller stated. The CPB badge is fairly easy to document as it was worn for only a short time, but many UK cap badge designs originate from pre 1900 and up to the 1950s had several variations and numerous manufacturers. Quite a hefty task but this is what the British Badge Forum is trying to do, with a group effort and many photo albums of original badges, worth a look if you want to find original examples to compare.
Lee

This again shows the importance of a book on strictly British airborne material of the Parachute Regiment. Unfortunately jewelers and badge companies in the UK sold out to the restrike artists. Opinions are not enough. What is needed is indepth research into the design, manufacture, procurement and issue of insignia. This can only be done if original items with solid prov are used. I am sure there is an abundence throughout the world. I have now counted at least a dozen restrike examples of the UK made officers badge for 1CPB. So someone or a group of boneheads in the UK are really active in trying to fool people. This includes examples in bronze, brass, white metal, bi-metal, silver, white metal in gilt, white metal marked with maker, silver marked with maker and assay marks some with sliders and others with lugs. Solid, semi-solid and stamped. There are now badges which are painted in silver and gold and at a recent show here in Ottawa a strange example made in the wartime style only an obvious attempt to deceive. All this from a badge worn for little over a year in silver and gilt. Any badge made privately in the UK could have and can still be restruck. So one has to wonder about any UK made badge outside of strictly ISSUE and even there you have to be careful. The only way to help collectors is for someone to get off their ass and catalogue examples that are known originals worn by known veterans that exist in various institutions and collections. It would then be possible to make a study of the various die types and pin down known wartime ( non restruck ) examples in white metal, silver or other metal types and to match markings. The same analysis should go for shoulder titles, formation signs etc.

It is just a shame that these very active restrike artists are continuing to ruin the hobby. While the thread was about this particular badge and the way it was listed. In future, if a comprehensive study is made, you may be able to ID badges simply by the die impression on the front. Warnings could also be added to any text regarding the possibility of existing restrikes of that die impression.

Anyway just my thoughts. I would love to do it, however I don't live in the UK and I don't collect British. I just think it odd that the info is there yet no one has made an effort. I was shocked when I realized no one in the UK had ever done any research into their own parachute badge. In fact no first hand research of the badge existed in any form until I printed it in my 1CPB book. I am sure if someone in the UK had the time, they could even improve on it. I always wondered why the Parachute units themselves never wondered? Very odd.

Ken

[force136]

Question is, is it a real badge? how do you know? They have been restriking for some time now. I don't think it helps to have a badge pictured on thread and then another on another thread. You need to compare the badges pictured with known originals OR actual close-ups of the badge being worn period. Actually I was always told to stay away from Para Regt. badges in white metal with voided crowns. The reason being that the voided crown was a sign that the die could have been an officers die used post war to restrike in white metal. Anyway that is what I was told. Looking at it from a Canadian perspective, I know dozens of collections direct from Cdn and FSSF vets who picked up Para Regt cap badges at various times in the UK. All have non-voided crowns and are good solid strikes as seen in period photos. I have yet to see a voided crown on an ISSUE para regt. cap badge. However that may be because it is not something I collect. But my point is, to have a general study of the badge. The 1CPB badges are more complicated than you think, not due to the numbers of originals but due to the large numbers of fakes. The Cdn brass badge is almost reproduced today exact to the original period badges. You need to study the minute details in the original strike to tell the difference. It also helps to document the types of lugs used because many original types of lugs used are rare in themselves. It would still be good to have a large photographic study of the badges. You just need one person to put all that the gracious collectors on here have provided, prove they are right and document them in a book.

Ken

Gentlemen,
I won the following item on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=250503190521

According to the seller it is:
1 silver (taken from the item description)
2 still in fantastic condition (again taken from the item description)
3 hallmarked (answer by seller to my question)

Ad 3: I asked the seller: Hi, how do you know it is silver? Is it hallmarked? His answer was: dont know for certain but man in medal shop said early ones like this were silver.there is a small hallmark on the back cant see what it is it needs an eye glass but it could be a lion.

I'm not happy and I opened a dispute with Paypal.

What is your opinion? Please keep it factual as I am going to show the topic to Paypal staff.

Thanks, Luc

[DJT]

Hi Luc,

That was definitely a misleading description by the seller.

[grip3846]

That is the point

Hi Luc,

That was definitely a misleading description by the seller.

That is the crux here,misleading description,not silver but silver metal,what lions head,yes the one on the crown,but not a Hallmark,all in all I would not be happy with this "as described" on Ebay at all. Buyer should do the right thing and refund.
Regards,Ivan

[lnijherald]

Ken, thank you for killing the thread. It is completely useless now to build my case with Paypal.

Luc

[force136]

Silver Badge

Hi Luc, terribly sorry, I got carried away there. However I think you have a case regardless. It is NOT a silver badge. And as stated many times on this thread, NOT as described. I don't see what I added as being detrimental to your case, if anything it strengthens it.

Ken

Ken, thank you for killing the thread. It is completely useless now to build my case with Paypal.

Luc

[lnijherald]

if anything it strengthens it.

I would like to disagree Ken. What you say is that this may not be a genuine cap badge in the first place, that suggests that I should have done my home work better which brings me into a defensive position. NOT what I was after.

Luc

[force136]

Silver

Again, very sorry Luc, however I thought the issue here was that it was not sold as described. It could be a badge made yesterday but it was still sold with a far from truthful description. As you state yourself, it is NOT silver, It is NOT a cap badge but coverted to a brooch, It is NOT hallmarked. Whether the badge was manufactured during the war or not, it was still sold using obvious lies or the seller is an idiot that should not be selling badges in the first place.

All I was stating was that someone should get off their ass over there and create a solid reference work on this insignia. That said, a solid reference work can't cover up lies stated in a description caption so therefore you have a case regardless,

Ken

I would like to disagree Ken. What you say is that this may not be a genuine cap badge in the first place, that suggests that I should have done my home work better which brings me into a defensive position. NOT what I was after.

Luc

[Old Smelly]

I would like to disagree Ken. What you say is that this may not be a genuine cap badge in the first place, that suggests that I should have done my home work better which brings me into a defensive position. NOT what I was after.

Luc

Hi Luc
I agree with Ken, the bottom line is the item is not as described and any good seller should offer a refund
Lee