1800's Medals Black Watch Color Sgt. E. McKenzie

[vonStubben]

I have these medals which belonged to Color Sgt. E. McKenzie of the Royal Highland Regiment (Black Watch).

The medals consist of the Egypt General Service, Geo. V Meritorious Svc., Geo. V Long Svc. and Good Conduct, and the Khedive's Star Egypt 1884-86.

Info. inscribed onto the rim of the Egypt Gen. Svc. medal is:

128 Pte. E. McKenzie I/R

Geo. V Merit. Svc.:

C. SJT E. McKenzie BLACK WATCH

Geo. V Long Svc.:

3-4050 C. SJT E. McKenzie R. Hdrs

Khedive's Star:

Unmarked

All medals were re-ribboned by Spinks by the previous owner.

Based on this information can anything more be found out about him?

Thanks,

Chuck

[vonStubben]

Reverse

[Mons 1914]

Well first impressions it seams quite a long stretch of service going on the bars from 1884 at least right the way through to award of the MSM & LSGC which both have the Field Marshal bust not to have some WW1 medals, or possibly any previous campaigns namely Boar War 1899 - 1902.
M.S.M has a "fixed" suspension" 1911-1920
L.S.G.C had a "swivel Suspension" 1920-1930

Below is a link to a Medal Index Card for the MSM
http://content.ancestry.co.uk/Browse...2581&rc=&zp=50

Hope this helps
Scott

[vonStubben]

Well first impressions it seams quite a long stretch of service going on the bars from 1884 at least right the way through to award of the MSM & LSGC which both have the Field Marshal bust not to have some WW1 medals, or possibly any previous campaigns namely Boar War 1899 - 1902.
M.S.M has a "fixed" suspension" 1911-1920
L.S.G.C had a "swivel Suspension" 1920-1930

Below is a link to a Medal Index Card for the MSM
http://content.ancestry.co.uk/Browse...2581&rc=&zp=50

Hope this helps
Scott

Thank you Scott. Does this mean that the bar has been made up? I don't know anything about English medals really, but what I did like is that the name & info. on the rim of each medal is struck with different tools and the Egypt medal is hand engraved. Also, on the medals index card, does the date of 1929 mean the card was filled out then or that he died or was seperated from service in 29? Also, this card is blank and seems to be for service medals from the Great War?

Chuck

[Adam H]

Hi Charles,

First off, a nice set of medals, to my favourite regiment, lovely to see. Thanks for sharing them.

Here are my initial thoughts...

The combination is certainly conceivable. That he doesn't appear to have a MIC for WWI service medals, but has one for the MSM, is not unheard of. He could have accumulated more than enough "time in" to qualify for the LSGC and MSM before the First World War. Many MSMs were awarded at, or shortly before retirement/release.

It's possible that he was entitled to a QSA Medal for the Boer War... Both regular battalions of The Black Watch had large numbers of soldiers in South Africa. However, at a hunch I would he did not go. It seems likely that 4 of his medals would stay together while a 5th went astray. That said, it's possible there is a stray QSA out there named to him...and also possible that he was entitled but it was never issued/recieved.

You would be able to glean some more insight into his service but this would require a researcher in the UK to do the leg work for you. I can recommend one if you are interested, just send me a PM.

Cheers,

Adam

[peter monahan]

Chuck

Major Gordon's "British Battles and Medals" says that 4 bar Eygtian Medals are "rather rare" but the 42nd did qualify for all 4 of the bars your man has. In fact, a few of the regiment formed part of the "Mounted Infantry Camel Regiment" (no number given) which qualified for the "Nile 1884-85" bar. The regiment - "42" - is listed as present for that bar, while the other three bars were earned by "1/42".

Peter

[Adam H]

Quite right, in fact, 5 bar medals to the regiment are known. Have seen a few about.

[yellow]

Looks like a WW1 Depo Instructors or storemans group to me. I have seen this combination before to such individuals.

[RPN]

Hello Chuck

I've just had a quick look at the Black Watch medal rolls ... the Egypt Medal (1882) and all clasps are confirmed to the roll. Your man's first name is "Evan".

I can't see from your pic, but the Khedives Star was awarded for the Egypt campaign and should be dated 1882 on the obverse.

Nice group!

Regards
Paul

[vonStubben]

Thank you gentlemen for all your help, it is greatly appreciated. It is nice to know his first name and that everything jives.

Chuck

[Mons 1914]

Chuck,
When I did the search I could only find the card for the MSM so maybe he has no WW1 medals? but I would think that a QSA is floating somewhere you could get a copy of the medal rolls on the Boar war this would confirm either way.

Scott

[RPN]

Hello Scott / Charles

I've had a look at Capt John Stewart's rolls (Medal Roll 1801-1911) and there are no entries for any Boer War entitlement for this man.

I'd now go with Adam's suggestion - Adam will no doubt have the name of an excellent researcher who can hopefully locate his service papers at the National Archives (?Kevin A. ).

Regards
Paul

[Tony Farrell]

The fixed suspenders on the MSMs and LSMs were introduced as an economy measure around 1920. I would venture to suggest therefore that the LSM was awarded quite some time before his MSM. This is not unusual, as the annuity MSMs were awarded upon vacancies occurring – often long after retirement.<O</O
<O</O

I/R on his Egypt Medal suggests he served in an Irish regiment – though I’m working from memory here and have no notes to hand. The issue of a George V LSM rather than a Edward VII type is indicative of broken service and re-enlistment in the Black Watch at some point. Assuming he was 20 years old in 1884, he would have been 50 by the time of the Great War – and thus quite old for active service, hence no Great War medals. I would imagine he remained at depot in a training capacity. By 1929 he would have been 65 and presumably long retired from uniformed service.<O</O
<O</O

The MSM is incorrectly mounted. It did not move to the fore of the LSM until 1979.<O></O>

[RPN]

"I/R on his Egypt Medal suggests he served in an Irish regiment ..."

Hi Tony

My assumption was that "1/R" is 1/R Highrs (or similar) with the missing letters having been obliterated by impacts from the Khedive's Star. I guess Charles can confirm if there are any signs of this common form of damage on the medal rim .. pitting etc.

with best wishes
Paul

[Tony Farrell]

Most likely. I didn't think of that.