pace stick

[ww2collector]

Hi all,

I believe you call it a pace stick ( as I was told by the daughter of a veteran. )

Yesterday I met with some good friends from Scotland and of course I started speaking about my collecting hobby.

The result was some nice war stories and the following item from WW1
The stick belonged to the following person.

Sergeant Robert Summers from the Gordon Highlanders.

I would love to know more about Robert Summers and if this is a rare item or not? ( it is not for sale but my main focus is WW1 )

Thanks
Eric

[britpc]

Hi,
It's a swagger stick not a pace stick.
Regards
Irv

[britpc]

*

[Dave Alexander]

Right, Irv, a swagger stick usually carried by senior NCOs and officers. A pace stick is in 2 pieces, hinged in the middle just like a pair of compasses which is used to measure length of pace for troops marching. It is carried by the RSM. The swagger stick may have a Regimental badge on the metal tip.

[ww2collector]

Thanks Irv and Dave.. learned something new today

Here another picture..
the metal tip has the Gordon Highlanders mark on it.

Eric

[C.O.Sargent]

They are also know as drill canes.

[byterock]

Actually next to drawers this is one piece of kit that has not changed very much since the days of the Roman Empire.

A vine stave, called vītis was the symbol of authority of a Centurion or todays Senior NCO or Subaltern.

Some state that it goes all the way back then.

Others only to the early gun powder age when NCOs use a pole-arm or staff to order the ranks in nice straight lines.

Some give a specific date of the 1702 'General Orders' as the 'leading cane' for subalterns in the field? Also said to be used to give out punishments?? (Not sure on this one myself, as some 17year snotty, who's dad bought his commission, giving a whack to a old vet just does not fit in the picture. An old NCO yes but an officer dirtying his hands like that??? Please??)

I think the best modern reason for them is to keep offices from 'putting their hands in their pockets' Which for some odd reason seems to be one of the most grievous sins one can commit while at 'public school'

Of course in the calvary and horse artilery it was a riding crop rather than a swager stick.

[ww2collector]

Today I spoke with the daughter again and she mentioned this was used to keep the ranks in nice straight lines and not for punishment.

Also can someone maybe point me to a website to find out more about Robert Summers??

Thanks
Eric

[peter monahan]

It is true that Roman centurions carried a vine staff and probably used it for 'correction" in a very "physical" age. However, by the nineteenth century the "stick" had evolved in several directions in the armed forces of His Most Britanic Majesty George III.

Bosuns in Nelson's navy often carried a "starter", usually a short length of thick rope, possible knotted at the end, to "smarten up" sailors who didn't move quickly enough. Both the item and the practice are mentioned in period accounts, in a navy where flogging was still a common practice and common sailors were encouraged to knuckle their brows to officers, a distinctly subservient gesture.

The army, on the other hand, seems not to have encouraged 'casual' physical discipline, though flogging was by no means rare. Sergeants still carried pikes, so there was no need for a stick to stand in for the longer item. And, more importantly, Sergeant Majors, a rank invented in 1812, carried a stick (swagger, not pace). It served as a badge of office. So did the sword and sash, both items worn by all sergeants and officers and meant to mark these men out to their troops. In the Victorian era, small canes - called "swagger sticks" were a fashion carried by soldiers down to the rank of private when off duty and certainly by some senior NCOs on parade.

Walking sticks were common among the upper classes and the 'stick' may well have been an attempt to ape their betters socially. I have the honour to be the Sergeant Major of the Crown Forces, North America, an 1812 historical re-enactment group and I would no more go on parade without my stick and white gloves than without my trousers! And, not to say that I'm never tempted, it is not meant to poke the troops with! And I'm sure it happened in all armies at least occasionally.

There is also a certain truth to the "hands in the pockets" idea: officers, for example, were forbidden to carry packages while in uniform (as late as 1914) and the cane makes a very useful 'prop' when one swaggers about - something to do with one's hands while at the same time informing others that one if far too high a class / rank to need to sully one's hands with anything useful, like say a rifle.

BTW, there's not a bad site on sticks at: http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-...pace-stick.htm

My shilling's worth and change!

Peter Monahan

[Robert Shoaf]

From what I've been able to ascertain over the years, an actual pace stick is most likely to be used in the Foot Guards, by senior nco's/ warrant officers, for drill & ceremonial purposes. I have many books, and a few videos illustrating their use. An excellent book is "On the Word of Command", a history of the regimental sergeant major in the British Army.

[britpc]

From what I've been able to ascertain over the years, an actual pace stick is most likely to be used in the Foot Guards, by senior nco's/ warrant officers, for drill & ceremonial purposes. I have many books, and a few videos illustrating their use. An excellent book is "On the Word of Command", a history of the regimental sergeant major in the British Army.

Hi,
Pace sticks were/are used by drill Sgt's/Corporal's in all arms of the British forces for drill instruction. I'm ex Royal marine (navy) and they were certainly used, and not always to measure your pace
Regards
Irv

[yellow]

Swagger sticks date back to days of Queen Victoria. It is NOT a cane exclusive to NCO's. The ONLY purpose a swagger stick serves it make a soldier look smart by keeping his hands out of his pockets when walking out.

This style of swagger stick was carried by some warrant officers and officers usually found manufactured to a much higher standard. Rather than an EPNS end those are found in hallmarked silver.

The next grade of cane is the warrant officer stick. The cane is usually at least four times the diameter of the cane I have described above, can be found in EPNS and silver. These were usually carried by warrant officers. My old mate actually had a wack round the head from one of these when he turned his head on parade when his company commander came on parade battered and bruised from a boxing match he had lost the previous night!

The last grade of cane is the regimental staff of office as carried by the most senior NCO, usually that is the Regimental Sergeant Major. These are always silver and have an end on them around three times the size of the warrant officers sticks. Not all RSM's carried them some carried the standard cane as shown here, it really depended upon exactly how much a NCO had to spend on his kit but one thing is for certain you wont see any photographs of privates carrying warrant officers canes or the regimental staff of office.

[ww2collector]

Thanks for all the explanation guy's

Does anyone have some period pics maybe?? Also I have checked the internet
and sent an email to the Gordon Highlanders website but no reaction at all with regards to the person the stick belonged to..

Anyone has maybe a good website to trace ww1 soldiers??

Thanks
Eric

[britpc]

Hi,
This one is from 1966 but shows swagger sticks being used. Second from the right is Capt. Vic Henry RM......My Ex father in law
Regards
Irv