I picked this up this morning. It is a World War Two visor cap made by Bates and has a name inked behind the band "W/C Laye?". I believe it is a Warrant Officer cap, so maybe it should be W/O? Could someone confirm the rank? The badge is voided brass metal and is painted black between the eagle and crown. The crown has red material backing it.
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RCAF Cap
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Well, based on these pictures, I'd be willing to say that the cap is a postwar officer's cap with a Warrant Officer's badge..... WO's had leather peaks. This being said sometimes in the field WO's had to make due with a converted Officer's SD, but it's very difficult to know.
In all honesty, the basic shape of the cap reminds me of a more current manufacture. Show me a Side photo, and an interior shot or three, detail I'm looking for is the maker mark, the lining and the sweatband, as well as the name. Also it looks like the chinstrap is plastic pretending to be leather, but you'll have to let me know the material.
The cap might be original with an added badge.....I say MIGHT because I don't have a good feeling about it.
Search Warrant Officer in this forum, you'll find my two posted examples. Both pre 1953 examples.
Cheers!Comment
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More Pics
Here are a couple of more pictures.
The hat came from a local veteran who stated that the cap belonged to a Chief Warrant Officer, RCAF. He believed the cap to be wartime, but it may very well be post war.
I have not encountered one before.Comment
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Another View
I believe the chin strap is leather. The cap is marked Bates London and Bates Service Cap Finest Quality. The green material covering the badge is integral, and sewn in, to green material around the entire circumference of the cap. The green material covers where the badge is and appears to have been put in at the time of manufacture. The lining is an oil cloth material. Is it possible that a Chief Warrant Officer would have an officer grade hat?Last edited by aeroraider; 07-07-2008, 04:18 PM.Comment
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Side
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Bates Label
Bates label.Comment
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Another View
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W/C means Wing Commander which is a rank in the air force, as you probably know.
Most op the peak caps I've seen have hand embroider capbadges, but this doesn't say that metal badges weren't issued to peak caps.
The King's crown itself is good
Maybe it's a possibility for a Wing Commander to have a metal badge?Comment
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As far as I am aware Chief Warrant Officer Didn't exist as an RAF/RCAF rank. I'm pretty sure it did exist for the Royal Navy. There was Warrant Officer 1st class (WO1) and Warrant Officer Second Class (WO2) Which was combined in 1939 to make one rank: The Warrant Officer. After 1953 the Warrant Officer designation was changed to Master Aircrew.
Setting the history aside, here's what I see. If the name is W/C and not W/O then this gent would have indeed been a WingCo, and as such would have worn a regulation officer's embroidered cap badge. Dress regs of the RAF/RCAF were very strict, if it didn't comply, it didn't belong. I recall a story from a vet who told me that after completing his training at #12 EFTS he quickly ran to the local tailor shop and had his "N" brevet modified to his new classification: Navigator B "NB." His first C/O demanded that he immediately remove the brevet and get a regulation version from the base stores! (This was before NB and NW were approved for wear)
I can't see this cap badge being original to the cap.
The green felt piece bugs me. I realize that it is there to prevent the brass from oxidizing and getting tarnish on one's head, but it doesn't look professional, and not something of "Bates" quality.
This cap is somewhat of an oddity.Comment
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Cap
Thanks for the information!
The green material is original to the cap as far as I can tell. It is integrated into the construction. The picture shows the ventilation grommets. These pass through the green material. It was not added. The material covers the reverse of the badge that is held in place with steel rings. There is a stiffener also sewn in behind the badge. It just does not look tampered with to me in any way.
The W/C could be W/O (it is very hard to read).Comment
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The RCAF did indeed have Warrant Officers during the war. This hat is most likely a 1950-1960(based on shape and materials used) period hat with WWII insignia added. It is possible that it is period WWII but I really doubt it. It is howver a nice representative of the type.
Cheers
GaryComment
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Similar Visor
This hat appears to be the same as the one I have, including the green felt material...
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...hlight=raf+hat
I cannot tell the difference between the hat in the thread shown above and the one I own. If so, are both post-war, or is mine different in some way?Comment
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Yes indeed, remarkably similar! There wasn't too much change in construction from wartime to postwar, except of course the early wartime styles with the leather underside to the cloth covered peak, but that's a different ballgame. It is a very difficult thing to tell whether or not an RAF cap is wartime or postwar, but having handled and owned many examples, something tells me that this one is, as Gary said, a 1950's or 1960's cap with added WO's badge.
Yes indeed there is no bonafide way to prove it, and it is a nice representative example of a possibly wartime cap, but the badge is not original to the cap.
I'd also be interested in learning more about the chinstrap.....it looks either like plastic pretending to be leather, or a newer leather one....I'd expect to see at least one crack in 60 year old leatherComment
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I am still not clear... sorry to be a pest! The cap was inexpensive, so my questions are out of curiousity.
The green material was originally a sign that the cap was not up to Bates standards, and so a post-war addition. It appears that green material was standard in Bates caps (if we accept that the other cap I have shown is wartime). I am pretty certain that the green material was sewn around the badge at the time of manufacture as the stiffener backs onto the badge and is sewn in place. There is no evidence of the material being added later. The vinyl strap would be another sign... but the one on this cap is leather. Given the price (inexpensive) and the source (veteran non-dealer/collector) it is unlikely that he would tamper with the item to make it into something more collectible or rare.
This cap looks identical to the other one on the forum, even down to the white bow at the back of the liner. I cannot see any differences.
The cap could be wartime and the badge is definitely wartime... correct?
So, basically there is no evidence to show that the cap is post-war except for "feeling"? Not that that is a bad thing... that is often what experts must rely on, it just wouldn't help me (a novice on these) to identify a wartime cap!
Again, I am not trying to be difficult... I am just trying to learn!Comment
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