Para helmets ???

[Gary Jucha]

Polish Para

I must jump in with my favourite subject !!!
... Provinance !!! .... "Polish Para wings" !!!!!!

They were worn by the recipients at Arnhem as part of their insignia !
.. So with an original set of wings ... you have 100% provinance the badge went through the battle !

Gary J.

(I do have some pieces of chute I personally pulled out the ground from the Polish DZ at Arnhem, .. as well as a container cradle ... thats provinance !!)

May I ask you gentlemen, what exactly is Arnhem provinance?

The reason why I ask is because I cannot think of any item Ive ever owned in 20 years that I could prove was actually in a specific battle. I can certainly prove a medal was won in a particular battle but with issued equipment that was often replaced I see that as almost impossible unless the item has contemporary brass plaque attached e.g German Rifles from WW1.

[yellow]

Gary I`m really confused by your reply because Ive always thought the combat wreath for the Polish badge was awarded after Arnhem? If you are talking about the qualification badge then there were many men who didnt actually make a drop who were awarded the badge as well. The badge has to be verified in the book. In many ways these are like medals, if you read my post I am refering to field gear not awards.

The topic of dug up items is something discussed at length in the German section of the forum. Proving you found something somewhere is always difficult if your trying to sell it. Even if you have photos of you pulling items out of the ground people are not always inclined to believe you.

[Gary Jucha]

Addition

The original badge was awarded for completion of the parachute training course, .. and thus the badge (without wreath) was worn as normal insignia.
The badges (After Arnhem), were taken back to the manufacturer, and the combat wreath was attached to the claws of the eagle.
The badges being individually numbered (Badge as well as wreath) were then returned to the original recipient.

Numbers for the actual combat wreath addition for "Market Garden" are around the 1663 mark ...

Cheers

Gary J.

Gary I`m really confused by your reply because Ive always thought the combat wreath for the Polish badge was awarded after Arnhem? If you are talking about the qualification badge then there were many men who didnt actually make a drop who were awarded the badge as well. The badge has to be verified in the book. In many ways these are like medals, if you read my post I am refering to field gear not awards.

The topic of dug up items is something discussed at length in the German section of the forum. Proving you found something somewhere is always difficult if your trying to sell it. Even if you have photos of you pulling items out of the ground people are not always inclined to believe you.

[yellow]

Thank you, I do understand what you have said but the topic here is lids and my point concerns equipment.

I agree with you concerning those badges they were worn and they have to be researched to prove it although to be honest I think you've found the only exception not including vehicles.

[Gary Jucha]

No problem

Yep, no problem ...
I do understand what you are saying about the helmets and equipment, .. it has became very difficult and very lucrative where provinance is concerned !!! ... and I suppose this is why a higher than normal premium is to be expected on a "rock solid" piece.

.. helmets ... I do know of the existance of 4 totally confirmed "Arnhem" Polish para lids ..... all the rest I've seen are totally suspect !

Cheers again ..

Gary J.

Thank you, I do understand what you have said but the topic here is lids and my point concerns equipment.

I agree with you concerning those badges they were worn and they have to be researched to prove it although to be honest I think you've found the only exception not including vehicles.

[yellow]

Those four Polish Lids which you mention............how do people know they were at Arnhem?

You see I dont believe there is such a thing as provinance of field gear being in a battle unless its a regimental trophy and recorded as being present through offical regimental channels.

As a collector I would not be prepared to except the following as evidence

- Veterans said they wore the helmet there.
- Veterans family said he wore it there.
- They were said to of been found on the battlefield by a civilian
- Auction room provinance, only as good as the original sellers source.
- Has associated paper work or other items with it relating to the veteran.
- There is an Arnhem veterans name on the equipment.

None of the above can actually be proved. There is a possibility that item of field gear may of been used at Arnhem, nothing more nothing less.

[WINGS]

Here you go folks a nice dodgy fibre rim lid

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=013

I must say I like the cuts around the rim

[Gary Jucha]

Grave

Ok ...
2 of the helmets were grave markers .. taken off the temporary crosses off the field graves when the bodies were reintered in the airborne cemetery at Oosterbeek. (Photograpic evidence exists of the helmets on the graves ..... damage to helmets corresponds to actual wounds ...)

1 was the personal property of the Brigade adjutant, who kept everything, and donated the lot to the Polish Air museum ..

1 was kept by a civilian in Driel, and is now in the Sikorski Institute in London.

.. I personally would be very very pleased to own any of the above as I have no doubts what-so-ever over these items, but that comes with a little research ..

All four of these helmets match each other in all relevent contemporary details, which thankfully have not been reproduced in likeness, shape or form by modern mimics .... there are telltales and dealer copy pitfalls, .. which again only research can distinguish ..

Gary J.

Those four Polish Lids which you mention............how do people know they were at Arnhem?

You see I dont believe there is such a thing as provinance of field gear being in a battle unless its a regimental trophy and recorded as being present through offical regimental channels.

As a collector I would not be prepared to except the following as evidence

- Veterans said they wore the helmet there.
- Veterans family said he wore it there.
- They were said to of been found on the battlefield by a civilian
- Auction room provinance, only as good as the original sellers source.
- Has associated paper work or other items with it relating to the veteran.
- There is an Arnhem veterans name on the equipment.

None of the above can actually be proved. There is a possibility that item of field gear may of been used at Arnhem, nothing more nothing less.

[lnijherald]

May I ask you gentlemen, what exactly is Arnhem provinance?

To me, if you can be sure that it was used during the battle.

I have a couple of items with Market Garden provenance: a fibre rim, a tooth brush, live vest lever, spike bayonet scabbard that were dug up recently.
Also a respirator case and a boiled sweets tin that was given to me by someone who picked then up at the time of the battle simply because they were useful.

Gary, don't forget the Polish helmet that was dug up and donated to the Hartenstein.

Cheers, Luc

[Gary Jucha]

Yes !!

Yes Luc, .. I forgot that helmet !! thanks for the reminder

Gary J.

Gary, don't forget the Polish helmet that was dug up and donated to the Hartenstein.

Cheers, Luc

[yellow]

You havent said anything to convince me.

Regarding the two helmets found on graves. It is a regular occurance for people to fake these battle damaged helmets on eBay. Particularly common are US helmets to officers supposidly found in barns etc with sniper bullet holes in them.

Of the helmet belonging to the Brigade adjutant, what is to say that helmet is a later replacement, Arnhem wasnt the only involvment the Polish Parachutists had in the war.

The helmet donated by the civilian. Just because this person lived near to battlefield does not prove forcertain that he got it from there? He could of bought it in later years.

......Ive already made my opinion clear on dug ups.

Polish helmets are being faked and have been faked in Lincolnshire, Ive also observed one helmet in Nottinghamshire.

I`m really sorry guys but no matter how hard you try your not going to convince me about battlefield provinance. No doubt the helmets are genuine and of the period of the battle but that fact does not prove they were there.

[lnijherald]

no matter how hard you try your not going to convince me about battlefield provinance.

There's no need really as I'm not planning to sell any of my MG items to you.

Cheers, Luc

[Gary Jucha]

Research

I'm not trying to convince you .. I don't have to convince you !

The history of the helmets off the graves is 100% solid.
Ownership is known and proved since 1945 .... before E-bay existed ..

The Brigade adjutant helmet is a fibre rim, ... not issued to Poles after 1943 .... this was directly donted by the veteran before he died ..

The helmet donated by the civilian to the Sikorski was owned by him since 1945 - pr-ebay again ???

The helmets in Lincolnshire are well known of their type, and don't bare any resemblence to the true items ...

The dugup helmet from Oosterbeek was found last year, close to the Polish positions ... but of course someone might have buried it there as a joke in 1944 then redug it up !!

... I can only conclude you are taking this thread as a piece of sport ..

Try research, it might help ...

Gary J.

You havent said anything to convince me.

Regarding the two helmets found on graves. It is a regular occurance for people to fake these battle damaged helmets on eBay. Particularly common are US helmets to officers supposidly found in barns etc with sniper bullet holes in them.

Of the helmet belonging to the Brigade adjutant, what is to say that helmet is a later replacement, Arnhem wasnt the only involvment the Polish Parachutists had in the war.

The helmet donated by the civilian. Just because this person lived near to battlefield does not prove forcertain that he got it from there? He could of bought it in later years.

......Ive already made my opinion clear on dug ups.

Polish helmets are being faked and have been faked in Lincolnshire, Ive also observed one helmet in Nottinghamshire.

I`m really sorry guys but no matter how hard you try your not going to convince me about battlefield provinance. No doubt the helmets are genuine and of the period of the battle but that fact does not prove they were there.

[yellow]

The point is if you paying an extra one thousand pounds because someone has told you this helmet was an Arnhem then your very foolish. You are in theory paying for thin air and a speculative claim.

I see these claims all the time at fairs. I remember when i was at fair and I bought a common pip, squeak and wilfred set to a New Zealand soldier complete with a Gallipoli commerative medal..........the dealer said he was probably at Gallipoli and I replied there is also a chance he was not. As it turned out the man in question had no service at Gallipoli, the star was earned in Egypt and the commerative medal was put with it. I had paid for a group of medals to a Gallipoli veteran, something this soldier was not.

In the days when people are faking paper work and building up lots with original paper work one should always be very sceptical. Veterans and their families are on the most part just normal people they do get mixed up. Some soldiers are not always honest about their careers. I know this because of the WW1 veterans I met I decided to view their service records. What they told me and what was on their service records were often two different things. Even gentlemen who were running Old Comrade Asssociations who were deemed to be most honourable men, I found that whilst in the army they did not have clean charge sheets.

Gary, I am not treating this thread as sport. I am argueing my point in an educated manner. I am sorry you cannot see that. I really do not see how you think items pre-dating eBay are genuine? Militaria has always been faked for as long as there have been collectors for it.

[jelle]

The winning bidder of this fibre rim bought another one (recce if memory serves me well) on ebay last year for a large sum. Apparently he knew it had good Market Garden provenance, in fact he once was the owner and he regretted selling it and he simply had to win it back.
I assumed this was the case again with the helmet we are discussing, and that is why I wondered why it is for sale now in France.

Cheers, Luc

The one on the French site is not the same helmet as the one bought by Hans of Ebay recently!