How many of you have one of these?

[Lampwick]

I'm trying to find out if these Middle East Commando daggers are fairly commonplace or rare. Has anyone got another of these? I'm also looking for a Post Card from the Cairo National Police Museum that shows a man's arm and hand holding one of these. Sometimes called 'the Fanny'!

[britpc]

Hi Lampwick,
Not many I would think. That is a lovely original WW2 Middle east commando knife

Haven't seen the picture you are referring to

Let me know if you want to move it on
Regards
Irv

[Jim Maclean]

That is beautiful, as Irv has taken first dibs on it could you email me a tracing or outline with a few dimensions, I'd love to take a crack at making a replica.

[Lampwick]

This is a reconstruction of a Post Card from the Cairo National Police Museum that a collector friend has.

[pylon1357]

Great looking piece. I'm afraid here in Canada, you would not find any members openly admitting to owning one of these. The Knuckle Duster handle would make this Prohibited in Canada.

Lovely piece for certain, thanks for sharing this one, it has reignitghted the flame I had for edged weapons.

[Lampwick]

Hmmmm!! Maybe they're illegal here too! Most other things are. Does anyone know what the Plod says about Historically Important Weaponry??

[yellow]

What they say is, if it can be used or re-activated then its illegal.

You could be an armourer in the British Army and the police will still remove the items from your personal collection......that is a true story. I know of another example where a squady was shipped from N. Ireland to Germany, in his kit customs found a bolo type knife, this was confiscated. He used to carry it around with him all the time on patrols in Ireland.

This is total speculation on my part I admit, but I wouldnt be suprised if in a case where a large quanity of such items have been located items such as badges, medals and uniforms would also be removed pending a full investigation. A real collectors nightmare.

The police arent antique dealers so they cannot be expected to know the difference.

[Adrian Stevenson]

Hmmmm!! Maybe they're illegal here too! Most other things are. Does anyone know what the Plod says about Historically Important Weaponry??

I am always very hesitant to offer any kind of "legal" advice. I do want appear as a barrack room lawyer Here is a website which has links to the relevent Acts:

http://www.bkcg.co.uk/guide/law.html

My understanding is they are legal to own but not to sell.

Cheers, Ade.

[britpc]

Hi Guy's,
Well I've had a good look to see where we stand on this and this is what I have found so far:-

The Offensive Weapons Order 1988, (S.I. 2019 of 1988) made under a power provided by subsection 141(2) of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 provides a list of weapons the sale; hire, offering for sale/hire, exposing or importation of which is prohibited. This Order has been added to by SI 1668 of 2002 to include a disguised knife (in force from 23 June 2002) and by SI 1271 of 2004, to include a stealth knife and a baton (in force 5th June 2004).
This list only applies to section 141 offences - it is NOT a list of all offensive weapons per se. (Also note there are exceptions even if the weapon is on this list, see below.)
KNUCKLEDUSTER - a band of metal or other hard material worn on one or more fingers and designed to cause injury and any weapon incorporating a knuckleduster;
SWORDSTICK - a hollow walking stick or cane containing a blade that may be used as a sword;
BALISONG or BUTTERFLY KNIFE - a blade enclosed by its handle, which is designed to split down the middle, without the operation of a spring or other mechanical means to reveal the blade;
SHURIKEN, SHAKEN or DEATH STAR - a hard non-flexible plate having three or more sharp radiating points and designed to be thrown;
BELT BUCKLE KNIFE - a buckle which incorporates or conceals a knife;
HOLLOW KUBOTAN - a cylindrical container holding a number of sharp spikes;
PUSH DAGGER - a knife, the handle of which fits within a clenched fist and the blade protrudes from between the fingers;
KYOKETSU SHOGE - a length of rope, cord, wire or chain fastened at one end to a hooked knife;
KUSARI GAME - a length of rope, cord, wire or chain fastened at one end to a sickle;
FOOTCLAW - a bar of metal or other hard material strapped to the foot from which a number of sharp spikes protrude;
MANRIKIGUSARI or KUSARI - a length of rope, cord, wire or chain fastened at each end to a hard weight or hand grip;
BLOWPIPE or BLOWGUN - a length of hollow tube out of which hard pellets are shot by the use of breath;
HANDCLAW - a band of metal or other hard material worn around the hand from which a number of sharp spikes protrude;
TELESCOPIC TRUNCHEON - a truncheon that extends automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in or attached to its handle;
A DISGUISED KNIFE - that is any knife which has

• a concealed blade or concealed sharp point; and
• is designed to appear to be an everyday object of a kind commonly carried on the person or in a handbag, briefcase, or other hand luggage (such as a comb, brush, writing instrument, cigarette lighter, key, lipstick or telephone);

Note
A disguised knife was added to list by SI 1668 of 2002 as from 23 June 2002.
A BATON - ie a straight, side-handled or friction-lock truncheon;
A STEALTH KNIFE, that is a sharp knife or spike, which has a blade, or sharp point, made from a material that is not readily detectable by apparatus used for detecting metal and which is not designed for domestic use in the processing, preparation or consumption of food or as a toy;
Notes
Stealth knives are non metallic hunting or stiletto knives, made of a range of materials, such as nylon zytel or high impact plastic. Although they look like conventional knives, they are difficult to detect by security apparatus. The Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) (Amendment) Order 2004, added the stealth knife to this list with the intention of improving airline security.Stealth knife and baton/truncheon were added to list by SI 1271 of 2004 [The Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) (Amendment) Order 2004], as from 5 June 2004.
HOC 34 of 2004 draws attention to the provisions of this order. It should be noted that the Order does not create an offence of simple possession of a stealth knife or truncheon. However the design and construction of these items is such that their possession in public, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, may be unlawful either under section 1(1) of the Prevention of Crime Act 1953 or section 139 (1) of the Criminal Justice Act 1988.
Not included in the regulations or exempt
(i) A weapon which is an antique is exempt (manufactured more than 100 years before the date of any offence alleged to have been committed in respect of that weapon under subsection (1) of the section 141 or section 50(2) or (3) of the Customs and Excise Management Act 1979).
(ii) Transfer of a weapon for the purpose of giving or lending it to a non-profit making museum or gallery is allowed, as is the lending or hiring such items for artistic or cultural purposes by museums and galleries.
(iii) The weapon in question's use is only for the purposes of functions carried out on behalf of the Crown or of a visiting force.

Footnotes

• Specifying a particular weapon in the Order makes its sale automatically unlawful unless one of the defences apply i.e. that the person concerned is a Crown servant, or a member of a visiting force, or the item is for museum display.
• See also a warrant to search for and a power to seize these weapons.

Regards
Irv

[britpc]

And there's more

Section 141 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 as amended by section 43 of the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 creates an offence of transferring ownership, trading in, importing or manufacturing certain offensive weapons to which the section applies. It states:
141(1) Any person who manufactures, sells or hires or offers for sale or hire, exposes or has in his possession for the purpose of sale or hire, or lends or gives to any other person, a weapon to which this section applies.

Click here to view the offensive weapons to which this section applies.

141(2) The Secretary of State may by order made by statutory instrument direct that this section shall apply to any description of weapon specified in the order except:-

(a) any weapon subject to the Firearms Act 1968; (therefore firearms - including air weapons are excluded) and
(b) crossbows.

141(3) A statutory instrument containing an order under this section shall not be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before Parliament and has been approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.
141(4) The importation of weapons to which this section applies is prohibited.
141(5) It shall be a defence for any person charged in respect of any conduct of his relating to a weapon to which this section applies-

(a) with an offence under subsection (1) above; or
(b) with an offence under section 50(2) or (3) of the Customs and Excise Management Act 1979 (improper importation)

to show that his conduct was only for the purpose of functions carried out on behalf of the Crown or of a visiting force.
141(11A) It shall be a defence for a person charged in respect of conduct of his relating to a weapon to which this section applies:-

(a) with an offence under subsection (1) above, or
(b) with an offence under section 50(2) or (3) of the Customs and Excise Management Act 1979,

to show that his conduct was for the purpose only of making the weapon in question available for one or more of the purposes specified in subsection (11B).
141(11B) Those purposes are:-

(a) the purposes of theatrical performances and of rehearsals for such performances;
(b) the production of films (within the meaning of Part 1 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 - see section 5B of that Act);
(c) the production of television programmes (within the meaning of the Communications Act 2003 - see section 405(1) of that Act).

141(11C) For the purposes of this section a person shall be taken to have shown a matter specified in subsection (5), (8), (9) or (11A) if:-

(a) sufficient evidence of that matter is adduced to raise an issue with respect to it; and
(b) the contrary is not proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

141(11D) The Secretary of State may by order made by statutory instrument:-

(a) provide for exceptions and exemptions from the offence under subsection (1) above or from the prohibition in subsection (4) above; and
(b) provide for it to be a defence in proceedings for such an offence, or for an offence under section 50(2) or (3) of the Customs and Excise Management Act 1979, to show the matters specified or described in the order.

141(11E) A statutory instrument containing an order under this section shall not be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before Parliament and approved by a resolution of each House.
Note
The defence in section 141(11A) which came into effect on 1st Oct 2007 is not available in relation to so much of any charge as relates to conduct taking place before the commencement of this section.

Also be aware of these important points . . .

(i) Transfer of a weapon for the purpose of giving or lending it to a non-profit making museum or gallery is allowed, as is the lending or hiring such items for artistic or cultural purposes by museums and galleries.
(ii) The weapons to which this section applies are not necessarily 'offensive weapons per se', although they are offensive weapons. Some will also fall into the category of being a pointed blade etc (for the purposes of the offence under section 139 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988.
(iii) See also a warrant to search for and a power to seize these weapons.
(iv) See also the separate restrictions on the sale etc. of flick and gravity knives.

</LDFIELD>

[Lampwick]

I think that "Oh..Sh1t!!" about covers my reaction. Thanks for all the delving. "Yow ain't seen me, right?"

[seebee1]

Having read this thread it seems wiser to post his little 7 inch brother, so here he is. Regards, Clive.

[seebee1]

Image 2

[seebee1]

Image 3

[zachb]

Here is mine

Here is mine...I have never seen two examples alike. Don't know much about them either. Nice sheath Lampwick. Zach

IMG_0148_edited.jpg