1st canadian parachute battalion title

[4th division]

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x...k/DSC03641.jpg

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x...k/DSC03640.jpg

Hey guys,

I got this title from an other collector.

What do you think?

I got the garanty it was an original and I must NOT sell it.

Best regards, Erik

[lnijherald]

Erik, I'm not an expert but I've been told this is the only good pattern:

[4th division]

Hey Luc, TT right( I'm lincoln and weland)?

I just wanted to PM you.

I dont know, Jeroen says he likes the front but doesn't know for sure of the backing, i have a set of lincoln and welland titles, got them from a vet heavilly used whith the same backing.

I allso hade an other title from Nico R. Whitch had the same backing, i dont know about this one.

Any experts here?

[garthbtp]

Hi Erik,

I believe it is a copy.

The originals have much neater thinner lettering. And i must admit i've not seen one with a back like that. Reminds me of a printed title.

Cheers Garth

[4th division]

But, couldn't this not be a non textbook but original title?

Maybe Rare?

[wolf76]

Looks good but I would wait to see what others have to say.

Regards,
Edward

[1stcanpara]

I collect specifically to the 1st Canadian Parachute Battalion and I'm sorry to have to tell you that they patch is not an original wartime piece. If you have a money back guarantee, I would suggest that unless you paid $10-20 for the patch, that you ask for your money to be returned.

While in Europe, the Battalion only wore three official patches.

1. Cloth embroidered AIRBORNE CANADA
2. Printed cotton 1 Canadian Parachute Battalion
3. English-made embroidered cloth 1 Canadian Parachute Battalion

Your patch is one of a number of copies (English made) out there of the third varient. From the front, it is a pretty decent looking copy, (although the maroon colour is not correct) but the back is the dead giveaway. The back pictured in post number two is the correct (and only correct) one for this version of patch.

These patches were ordered by the Battalion quite late in the war, only being made available in April-May 1945. Just before the Battalion left the UK to return to Canada. Thousands of these were ordered for the unit and they were permitted only for wear on a walking out BD. It has been my experience that few of these patches made it onto uniforms as the majority of the men preferred to keep their printed canvas titles, even for their walking out tunics.

If you are seriously interested in collecting to the Battalion, I would highly recommend that you pick up a copy of Into the Maelstrom by Ken Joyce. It is available through Service Publications in Canada. www.servicepub.com It will save you money in the long run.


Cheers,

Gary

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x...k/DSC03641.jpg

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x...k/DSC03640.jpg

Hey guys,

I got this title from an other collector.

What do you think?

I got the garanty it was an original and I must NOT sell it.

Best regards, Erik

[4th division]

QUOTE:

These patches were ordered by the Battalion quite late in the war, only being made available in April-May 1945. Just before the Battalion left the UK to return to Canada. Thousands of these were ordered for the unit and they were permitted only for wear on a walking out BD. It has been my experience that few of these patches made it onto uniforms as the majority of the men preferred to keep their printed canvas titles, even for their walking out tunics.



So is my badge april 45? or a nowdays copy?( I'm not bothered if this is a repro because I'm building up a 1canpara re-enactment outfit)

Kind regards, Erik Suijkerbuijk

[1stcanpara]

Hello Erik,

It's a modern copy of a wartime patch. If you want to do reenactment, then you should be looking for copies of the canvas patch as this was the only patch that the unit wore in combat.

Cheers,

Gary

QUOTE:

These patches were ordered by the Battalion quite late in the war, only being made available in April-May 1945. Just before the Battalion left the UK to return to Canada. Thousands of these were ordered for the unit and they were permitted only for wear on a walking out BD. It has been my experience that few of these patches made it onto uniforms as the majority of the men preferred to keep their printed canvas titles, even for their walking out tunics.



So is my badge april 45? or a nowdays copy?( I'm not bothered if this is a repro because I'm building up a 1canpara re-enactment outfit)

Kind regards, Erik Suijkerbuijk

[Infanteer]

.
While in Europe, the Battalion only wore three official patches.

1. Cloth embroidered AIRBORNE CANADA
2. Printed cotton 1 Canadian Parachute Battalion
3. English-made embroidered cloth 1 Canadian Parachute Battalion

While I agree with your comments Gary, I think the key word that you have used is "official". While I am not making any comment on the originality of the title at the beginning of this thread, I would like to point out that in the reference that you mention (Into the Maelstrom) there is mention of members of the battalion obtaining and wearing "unofficial" titles while in England. I'm just curious if you have any thoughts or points to add about those? Seems to me that if unofficial insignia was used during the war it would be difficult for a collector today to verify originality of a non-standard title unless there was very solid provenance. Of course there are many fakes/repros on the market today and so it would be interesting to see examples of known unoffical titles used by the unit.

Cheers, Steve

[4th division]

Yes, could this be an un-official badge?

I think this badge is OK, but i'm doubting because the unit did not wear this title maybe?

Please give it another look before this one goes as a fake, because what if it is an original?

Kind regards.

[lambstew]

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x...k/DSC03641.jpg

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x...k/DSC03640.jpg

Hey guys,

I got this title from an other collector.

What do you think?

I got the garanty it was an original and I must NOT sell it.

Best regards, Erik

100% English made fake from the 1960's -1970's. 1st can para embroidered titles never had that black backing. Ken Joyce will confirm this. They are also larger then the standard embroidered English made titles.

Regards,

Konrad

[lambstew]

While I agree with your comments Gary, I think the key word that you have used is "official". While I am not making any comment on the originality of the title at the beginning of this thread, I would like to point out that in the reference that you mention (Into the Maelstrom) there is mention of members of the battalion obtaining and wearing "unofficial" titles while in England. I'm just curious if you have any thoughts or points to add about those? Seems to me that if unofficial insignia was used during the war it would be difficult for a collector today to verify originality of a non-standard title unless there was very solid provenance. Of course there are many fakes/repros on the market today and so it would be interesting to see examples of known unoffical titles used by the unit.

Cheers, Steve

Steve - the variations seen in Ken's book are basically it aside from some slight lettering variations. These titles all share commonalities/characteristics especially the two layer felt examples. The Battalion was also miniscule in comparison to the larger US airborne formations where all manner of patch variations existed. The size is also another one. The repro title that started this thread is much bigger then any privately purchased variation either single or double layer cloth. I have a cruder example of the official single layer English made embroidered title but it is exactly the same size without that black cloth backing. Anyhow I know the point you are trying to make but once you have been collecting this area for as long as Gary and I and a few others I know including the author, with many of the examples having provenance, you see the same things or wartime characteristics over and over again. The same can be said for British Parachute Regiment shoulder flash variations. Even those have certain commonalities and do not vary much from officially made titles. Like specializing in any field of collecting one becomes accustomed to real variations.

Cheers,

Konrad

[Infanteer]

The only point I was trying to make is that there are unofficial titles out there and I wanted to learn more about them, but if it's all in the book I guess there is nothing more to add.

[1stcanpara]

Sorry, I guess I was not clear enough with my post.

These patches were ordered by the battalion very late in the war and were received only four months before the unit was disbanded in September 1945. Although Ken did not mention the specific amount ordered in the spring of 1945, I believe that I recall him telling me that the order was for 3000 pairs. I stand to be corrected if Ken reads the thread and has further comment. The point is that why would any individual member of the battalion take the time and spend the money to have a copy made of a patch that was issued to them at this late stage of the war? Especially a patch that very few bothered to sew onto their uniform in the first place. Furthermore, there were offical cloth patches that were made in Canada during the later stages of the war and were made available to the men of the battalion when they arrived back in Canada in June 1945. These Canadian made patches are very nicely done and had they been availalbe in England earlier in the war, it's highly unlikley that any of the locally made patches would have been produced because there would not have been a need.

Because these patches were originally produced in England, fakes are still coming out of there. The same can be said of the officers badges which were also produced in England during the war. There are thousands of the fake cap badges still circulating and they have been since the 60s or 70s, they were made using the original dies from the wartime officers badges. They pop up on ebay all the time and people pay way too much for them. I used to have a URL for a website in England that was selling them for 4 Pounds each.

As for the private purchase patches, please have a look at the text in Ken's book again. Ken is very clear in stating that the copies that the soldiers did have made were of the canvas patch. (In fact, if you look at page 110, you'll see a couple of veteran- acquired examples from my collection that are very clearly in the form of the canvas patch.) This makes total sense as the guys were stationed in England at the time of issue and being typical soldiers wanted to dress up their unofficial or walking out BD. If anyone on the Forum were to post photos of a patch that is an obvious tailor made copy of the canvas title, I would never dismiss it out of hand since I doubt that there are two that are actually the same since from what we can tell, they were made by hand, mostly on a custom order basis by local shops.

I understand that with other larger formations, there can be an infinate number of variations, especially if the unit/corps was together for the whole war and stationed in various places. But the Battalion was, as Konrad said, a relatively small unit that had a very short lifespan (less than half the war) during which they wore only a few official pieces of insignia, which have been well documetned through both archival research by Ken Joyce and through the extensive photographic evidence that exists.

Anyway, hope this helps.

Gary

While I agree with your comments Gary, I think the key word that you have used is "official". While I am not making any comment on the originality of the title at the beginning of this thread, I would like to point out that in the reference that you mention (Into the Maelstrom) there is mention of members of the battalion obtaining and wearing "unofficial" titles while in England. I'm just curious if you have any thoughts or points to add about those? Seems to me that if unofficial insignia was used during the war it would be difficult for a collector today to verify originality of a non-standard title unless there was very solid provenance. Of course there are many fakes/repros on the market today and so it would be interesting to see examples of known unoffical titles used by the unit.

Cheers, Steve