World War Two British Stars

[jimuk]

Hi Marcus-
Thanks!! Had a look at CWGC website before purchasing. This is the reason why I bought the group in the first place: casualty for the Greek Civil War. Not many of those around. Quick note about the group though: condolence slip mentions 4 awards. 1939-45 Star, Italy Star, War and Defense medals would thus make sense, considering service in Greece. But my question is this: being 28 and having died in 1944 I would have expected him to have seen action elsewhere (i.e. further medal entitlement), an Africa Star would make sense to me. Hmm, any suggestions? Regards

JimUK

[anguspm]

Jim,

It would be quite possiblr for an engineer to have a lot of work to do within the uk (gun emplacements training etc). Or he may have been wounded and spent time in hospital. The presence of the Defence medal would lead me to believe he spent a large amount of time in the uk before finally moving in the Italy campaign. He could well have been in protected employment in the uk until a pressing need to join the military arose. This may explain the rank of Lieut at such an advanced stage of the war.

Looks like a trip to the PRO for you!!

Regards,

Angus

[jimuk]

Angus mate-
Great info!! I think we are on the same track: had considered home service. Lieutenant rank needs checking out. Anyways, thanks for the help, best regards

JimUK

[Tony Farrell]

On 22nd September, 1943 the Prime Minister was asked several questions concerning the issue of the 1939-43 Star and the Africa Star. (Advance notice would have been given of these questions, allowing an answer to be prepared; but supplementary questions without notice could follow.) The 1939-43 Star was later modified to become 1939-45 and the bar to one person receiving both it and the Africa Star was revoked.

WSC: "Service in Cyprus will not qualify for the Africa Star. Malta alone of the Mediterranean islands is included in the award of this Star, by reason of its heavy action and long ordeal in combination with the operations in Africa. In the Navy the 1939-43 Star takes priority of award over the Africa Star, and no one eligible for the former will receive the latter. The reason for this is that, from the naval point of view, service in the African campaigns cannot be accepted as ranking before world-wide services performed by the Navy in other areas of operations....

"When the Africa and 1939-43 Stars are manufactured after the war, they will be given as mementos to the next-of-kin of those who have suffered death as a result of service in a theater of operations during the periods laid down. We are going to get on with the giving-out of the medals. We are not going to delay the issue of the ribbons, but the question is whether some others should come in.

There are officers and men, some of whom have been fighting for three years continuously, and who, perhaps, have only a decoration for personal gallantry on their breasts. They will value it very much. We must be careful not to destroy the value of the award by making it practically universal. On the other hand, it may well be that some expansion may be permitted from the present conception. Everyone will recognise the difficulty of the problem, and how easily opinions may differ upon it.

I certainly hope the House will be able to find time to discuss this, because we obviously want to make these awards correspond with the general wish and feeling of the country and of the House, which represents the country, and also to make them in a form which will be acceptable to the far more critical opinion of the Fighting Services."

(PH Courtenay)

[Ed Tainton]

British & Cdn starshttp://www.egframes.co.uk/index.html

Try this and you can find all the fakes you want. E.G. Frames sells them all. Listen to his Bull Sh--T

[Marc Sherriff]

WWII Campaign Stars and Defence Medal for interest

The Campaign Stars were to be claimed on Army Form B.2070. The copy I have was printed in September 1945, and the claimant completed it in July 1947 for the award of the 1939-45 Star for service between 3rd September 1939 and the 8th May 1945, also the Italy Star for service between 14th February 1944 and the 8th may 1945.

Part I of the form requires; Surname, Christian names, Permanent Home Address, Army No., Present Rank, Regt., or Corps, whether any Decorations, MID's., or Military Commendations have been awarded, if wounded, captured or evacuated due to a disability other than a wound.

Then at paragraph 12(b) "If you have already been awarded the Africa Star or the 1939-43 Star, write already awarded and if possible quote at Part II the number and date of the Part II/III order".

At Part II (overleaf) the rows are headed 1939-45 Star, Africa Star, Pacific Star, Burma Star, Italy Star, France and Germany Star, Atlantic Star, Air Crew Europe Star, all of which require No., Rnk., Name, Regt., or Corps; Unit; Operational Area (i.e. actual country) and dates from, to. This information is then checked, verified and awards published at Part III.

The Defence Medal was to be claimed on Army Form B.2068. This time my copy was printed in December 1945, it is a smaller form that can be folded and posted in the mail. Similar information has to be provided with Part II having rows for Home Service, Overseas Service, Mine or Bomb Disposal Service, Home Guard Service and Home Guard (Auxiliary Bomb Disposal Service since Oct. 1942). There is also a list of who the form should be sent to relative to the claimants service, one paragraph is of interest; 14. Service in a national Defence Company (formerly National Defence Corps) or Independent Local Defence Company from or after 3.9.39 may be added to military service, Home Guard Service and qualifying civilian service.

Interestingly a locally produced claim form in lieu of the AFB 2070 was a lot smaller, simpler and dated the 9th July 1945. None of the above medals were ready for issue until 1948, and then sent un-engraved. But that opens another triad of letters between the claimant and the War Office, not to mention the letters on where is my Territorial Efficiency Medal and Meritorious Service Medal.

[JensF.]

Thanks for the link to the grave website!

[Ed Tainton]

Graveyard

You are right its a gravyard. I just thought they could get a fake to compare. At our Legion Branch we had a complete framed set of WWII stolen right off the wall. Maybe we should have used fakes ??? I don't think so because they would still be out there. Here's a story for you. In the 60's we had a Medal Show in Edmonton put on by the Military Collectors Club of Canada and I had entered a Victoria Cross group (Sgt Osborne Hong Kong Canadian) . During the show several items were stolen despite our security. To show his medals we subsituted a VC copy that was marked copy. The judges were shown the original and were satisfied. Needless to say I do not have that group. Negotiations fell through and the widow donated them to the Canadian Government still in the frame as I mounted them.

Ed Tainton (Formally Edwin T)

[DJT]

"Negotiations fell through and the widow donated them to the Canadian Government still in the frame as I mounted them. "

Ouch Ed! I always find it funny how most widows and families think that Goverment and even privately run museums will care better for items than private collectors and that they have some sort of holier than thou integrity. Often Museums will sell or "lose" donated items. I hear stories all the time.

Regards,

Des

[Ed Tainton]

Goverment Museums

You are right there. I have taken items to trade for other items.
They never show half the material they have. Always need more room & money. I have a SS sevice medal they traded to me. Plain blue ribbon, though I can't bend it it looks like fake. I might post it and get opinions. They told me it came from a veterans estate.

[Phil_C]

This thread has become really informative,

I got my first star group today, consisting of the 39-45 star, Burma star, WM and DM. I blacked lighted it all and the only on to light up was the war medal. Is it common for there to be a mix in a mix of ribbons in groups? as I'm sure a WWII vet wouldn't think twice about replacing an old or lost ribbon. Although all star look ok, also how do you tell if a war or defence medal is a repro?

Cheers
Phil

[Ed Tainton]

Ribbons

Commonwealth WWII stars & medals are the same except for Canadian the medals are made from silver, the Brits cupra-nickel.As for the ribbons who can tell ?? I know when I court mounted medals I used the cheapest I could get. Some were purchased in the Usa, England & Canada. Wholesale you had to purchase 3 yards or more (Thats a lot of ribbon to use up). So you will see some differences in the manufactor of ribbons. Some years ago I saw a pair of suspenders made from (believe it or not) the Burma Star ribbon. I guess they were over stocked as the Burma Star was not that common, especially here in Canada(mostly aircrew received it). To tell the difference (fakes) in the medals, I guess you could weigh them, check the lettering etc. unless somebody out there can enlighten us. I know the phoney Aircrew Europe was around in the late 50's and the other stars followed. There must be serveral dies out there and over 10 dealers selling them. Most groups sold in Canada are good but when you get greedy dealers who are not no above board you have to check every item purchased. They know its a lot of trouble returning stuff and rely on us to say nothing. Good subject. Lets hope we get more input.

[DJT]

Hi Ed,

Did you serve in WW2 yourself? Or are you an early collector from the 1950`s? Bet you`ve seen some magnificient items over the years and quite alot of changes in prices too!

Regards,

Des

[Tony Farrell]

Ribbons & Stuff

So you will see some differences in the manufactor of ribbons.

You most certainly do. Whilst some minor differences can be found in the colour shades due to materiel quality & dyes, differences can sometimes be encountered with ribbon width. I personally do not pay that much attention to detail with regards to ribbon, and most collectors of British medals have the same attitude. It's poles apart from the black light obsessed Third Reich bunch. In fact, I don't pay that much attention to the WWII Stars either.

Below is an illustration of the width factor. A contemporary piece of Pacific Star ribbon was sourced that (at first) seemed OK. It wasn't until I was re-mounting the clasp that I noticed it was slightly wider than usual. Am I going to lose sleep? I think not.

And before anyone pulls apart the Star (& clasp) itself as being a poor copy, then its a copy from the War Office in 1948 that was sent to my former neighbour who served in the Pacific in the RN. Yet another example of varying degrees of quality control.

[Ed Tainton]

Fake Burma Star


I can't believe that this is happening as we are talking about fake stars. I just received a Burma star (Canadian dealer) that is a FAKE. We I received it, it was blackened but after cleaning it was obviuosly a fake. It had a rosy tinge and the ring solder showed through and was flimsy. The centre bulged out slightly and there was rough edges on the medal. The dealer apologized and said he didn't know. That's BS. The back also had small gouges . I have picture of the ring and back. Will send them next time if I get this picture on the thread.