Is this denison smock pre1945?

[camomania]

Hello,

I have one denison smock in my collection.
Label is very faint and there is no date.
Is this smock pre1945?
Please let me know.

camomania

[camomania]

1

[camomania]

2

[Adrian Stevenson]

100% WW2.

It is a first pattern smock. These were not made after 1945.

The dates on this makers labels (CWS Ltd) will often be found stamped on in ink. This will often wash out, especially as your smock has seen a lot of use and washing.

Cheers, Ade.

[camomania]

100% WW2.

It is a first pattern smock. These were not made after 1945.

Cheers, Ade.

Hello Ade,

Thank you for quick response!
How about value?

camomania

[Adrian Stevenson]

Hi, I don't really like giving valuations very much. I can only say that I have seen similar ones sell for about £200/$400 here in the UK. Any mint one now will start at about £450/$900.

Cheers, Ade.

[Dudley]

1st pattern ******163;200/$400?? I give you ******163;250 if you find one for me.

Hi, I don't really like giving valuations very much. I can only say that I have seen similar ones sell for about ******163;200/$400 here in the UK. Any mint one now will start at about ******163;450/$900.

Cheers, Ade.

[SMP]

............ I have seen similar ones sell for about £200/$400 here in the UK.

Cheers, Ade.

I'll take a dozen at that price Ade ! I think you will find they sell for quite a bit more than that .

Where do I send the cheque ??

Steve

[Adrian Stevenson]

That was the lowest figure I have seen one sell for. As I mentioned a mint one will start at £450 upwards.

Cheers, Ade.

[force136]

Ade's Prices

You know I agree with Ade here. I dont think plain jane smocks are worth any more than 250-300 pound range. Before the advent of the E-bay craze and over anxious buyers ( who actually created their own overblown prices which they and everyone else now have to deal with ) these smocks were only worth about 400-500$ Canadian!!!! I could get smocks and Brit Para helmets out of Canada, the UK and Aussie land for very reasonable prices all types for under 500$ Canadian- this up until a few years ago. Today the prices are simply stupid. Over a 1000$ for items that not too long ago could still be found in the UK as surplus. If some people could have relaxed somewhat then, we would not be looking at mortgaging the house to buy a paratrooper rig today. As for the smock in this thread - It is def an example from 1942-43 and if you really need to read the label, use a black light. It will suck out that date stamp. They are very handy for that.

Ken

That was the lowest figure I have seen one sell for. As I mentioned a mint one will start at £450 upwards.

Cheers, Ade.

[JONNY P]

Hi, I don't really like giving valuations very much. I can only say that I have seen similar ones sell for about £200/$400 here in the UK. Any mint one now will start at about £450/$900.

Cheers, Ade.

I personally agree with Ade on this one, this is a very well used smock, one large and very obvious repair, plus another smaller and quite washed out and possibly missing it's tail, so £200-300 is what I consider a fair price because it is 'an original 1st pattern Denison'. Just because some dealers are charging £1000 for decent 1st patterns, doesn't mean they are actually worth £1000, it's almost entirely the E-Bay effect. I don't know about other people but for £900 I would personally want something very, very nice and 1st pattern. I think wea as collectors need to start putting our feet down and amking a stand when dealers start pulling random figures out of the air because they have personally decided 'it's worth' that.

[force136]

ere' ere' Johnny P

Exactly !!!

If I could buy several smocks early and late from different sources in different countries for under 500$ Canadian only 7 years ago, what is the rate of appreciation? At this rate you will have to make a choice between a smock and a new car in 2015. When I started collecting back - I am not that old- 1981 you could not find smocks or helmets. They were rarer than hens teeth, however when one did pop up, it was still only 40-50$ Canadian. Helmets with insignia on them maybe 80$ or so. In fact a militaria shop where I am from in Oshawa, Ontario, Canada had a grouping from a man named Brisbois 1CPB from Oshawa. This consisted of smock, beret and badge, helmet with net and two names in it, shoulder titles, pegasus, gold Bn slip ons, photos and his jump boots. This guy knew his stuff and the going prices. He sold the lot for 300$ Canadian. So since 1983 when this stuff was sold, only 23 years ago, this lot has appreciated by E-Bay prices about 17 times over. It makes no sense. The stuff people are paying crazy prices for today are not even confirmed to be from a particular veteran or battle, they are just items of clothing? I agree there needs to be more control.

Ken

I personally agree with Ade on this one, this is a very well used smock, one large and very obvious repair, plus another smaller and quite washed out and possibly missing it's tail, so £200-300 is what I consider a fair price because it is 'an original 1st pattern Denison'. Just because some dealers are charging £1000 for decent 1st patterns, doesn't mean they are actually worth £1000, it's almost entirely the E-Bay effect. I don't know about other people but for £900 I would personally want something very, very nice and 1st pattern. I think wea as collectors need to start putting our feet down and amking a stand when dealers start pulling random figures out of the air because they have personally decided 'it's worth' that.

[Jack Dutton-Roberts]

Jonny,

I hate to go against what you say (and I know I've just had a few drinks) but personally I have not seen many overpriced smocks that I consider to be very good examples from dealers. Most of the good and very good smocks that float about exchange hands privately and often for sums up to £1000. Of course, these might be few and far between but it does happen. The bottom line is that people have more disposable income nowadays and they pay a price that is worth it to them and not one that has been set by the trend of years gone by. I know it's a real shame, especially with the large amounts of fraud nowadays, but money talks. I don't have loads of money either but I will pay the going rate for something I think is a worthwhile purchase. I also find it is much better to specialise in one field and try to stick to it. This way you cannot go as far wrong.

Just a few post pub thoughts...

Jack.

[SMP]

Times have changed. Collectors are better educated these days thanks to good colour photography, fine-detail close-ups, more readily available reference books, and of course on-line forums. They know the difference between 1st pattern and 2nd pattern smocks, between war-time and post-war, and between original and messed-with. A Denison is no longer "just a Denison". They know what they want, and they are willing to pay for it !
I know I am partially to blame for the current hike in prices, because I collect in a very small niche-market, and am willing to go the extra mile to get what I want. If you only want to pay £200 for a Denison, that's fine by me. There are still plenty out there with faded camo, postwar-war modifications, no label and missing ape-tails. The prices of these will probably NOT rise very much, because collectors like me will never want one. However, good 1st patterns like this one are different. They will always be worth more, and the price is only going to go up. This has already happened in the world of FJ collecting, which is my main line of interest. I am glad I bought my FJ smocks when the were reasonably cheap. I can no longer afford the really nice ones, so now I look at British Denisons. Nice 1st pattern Denisons are still good value, even if they may seem dear to some.
My 2 cents worth.

Regards,
Steve

[force136]

smocks

Hi SMP

I understand what you are saying. My point was simply to convey to people the extreme and immediate rise in value. Personally I would rather take that 2000$ and do the reseach and locate a vet that may have kept his. I am sure he would be happy to get 2000$ for that old rag sitting in the garage.

BTW - I have said this before however there is no such thing as first and second pattern. There is one pattern. This was the accepted pattern adopted in 1942 after experimentation in 1941 ( Smocks Denison, Airborne Troops ). The actual pattern does not change until some time after WW2- you guys would know when better than me, was it not 1950's sometime? I think the other guys touched on this. This is why we have smocks with button collars, hoods, some with no button cuffs but snaps on the back for the crotch flap and some with snaps for the flap and button cuffs ( factory ), more concentrated camo pattern etc etc. These were modifications done to the original pattern as production continued throughout the war. These were suggested by the field units themselves when they were in North Africa. Some have one over the other due to the time the modification was implemented. In other cases it depends on the manufacturer as we noted with how the panels are sewn together. So as far as accuracy goes, later examples of smocks could be more properly referred to as modified examples of the original pattern. If you want to get technical.

Ken

Times have changed. Collectors are better educated these days thanks to good colour photography, fine-detail close-ups, more readily available reference books, and of course on-line forums. They know the difference between 1st pattern and 2nd pattern smocks, between war-time and post-war, and between original and messed-with. A Denison is no longer "just a Denison". They know what they want, and they are willing to pay for it !
I know I am partially to blame for the current hike in prices, because I collect in a very small niche-market, and am willing to go the extra mile to get what I want. If you only want to pay £200 for a Denison, that's fine by me. There are still plenty out there with faded camo, postwar-war modifications, no label and missing ape-tails. The prices of these will probably NOT rise very much, because collectors like me will never want one. However, good 1st patterns like this one are different. They will always be worth more, and the price is only going to go up. This has already happened in the world of FJ collecting, which is my main line of interest. I am glad I bought my FJ smocks when the were reasonably cheap. I can no longer afford the really nice ones, so now I look at British Denisons. Nice 1st pattern Denisons are still good value, even if they may seem dear to some.
My 2 cents worth.

Regards,
Steve