Today’s find #2 – WWII Canadian Provost Corps BD tunic

[Antoni Zawadzki]

Many thanks for the feedback on the artillery tunic.

Here’s the other one, belonging to a sergeant of the Canadian Provost Corps. Members figured prominently in both theaters of the war including the fall of Hong Kong 1941, the ill fated raid on Dieppe in August 1942, and a significant role in the invasions of Sicily and Italy in 1943 and 1944.

The right Epaulet button is missing. Dated June 1944. I’m not sure what the two metal bars on the sleeve represent. The “ACME Thunderer” whistle is a nice added bonus.

Any and all comments are welcome, including estimates of value.

Many thanks again,
Tony

[Antoni Zawadzki]

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[Antoni Zawadzki]

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[Antoni Zawadzki]

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[DJT]

Hi Tony,

Why are the stripes mint considering the wear to the rest of the BD? It also looks like badges have been removed from under the shoulder titles? More importantly the metal wound stripes are on the wrong arm (should be on the wearers left arm). Sorry but it looks like a made up/messed with piece to me.

[Adrian Stevenson]

Hi Tony, I would tend to agree with Des' comments on this one. I would think that an MP would be wearing the wound stripes in the regulation position

Cheers, Ade.

[Antoni Zawadzki]

Sorry but it looks like a made up/messed with piece to me.

Hello Des and Ade,

Thank you for your excellent observations. Des, absolutely no need to apologize! I am NOT the owner of this tunic. It still sits in this local army surplus shop – rather unceremoniously in a box behind a counter.

I will add that while “the camera can’t lie” – the tunic appears better in the pics. It looks cleaner and crisper in the pics than if you were to hold and examine it.

I have to say that it just doesn’t have the feel of an item that’s been messed with. Dusty and with the distinct smell of being stored in an unventilated area for a lengthy spell.

Also, I am having trouble seeing where “badges have been removed from under the shoulder titles”. I can’t see any of the telltale evidence that patches existed there.

Nonetheless, the fact that “…the metal wound stripes are on the wrong arm (should be on the wearers left arm)” is a serious matter. No doubt. This little slip relegates this tunic to ‘guilty until proven innocent’ status.

If it was good, what would this tunic be worth?

Regards,
Tony

[Cam_S]

Canadian BD

Hello All,

I am going to come to tony's aid a little bit here but I will try to remain impartial because I have not actually held the tunic.

I can't remember off the top of my head but I think it was in 1942 when the regulations on Canadian Shoulder title changed. Before the change they had the title and then just below it on another title they had Canada. Now this is a 1944 tunic so this probably will not apply. Also my grandfather landed on Sicily and Salerno with the RE and he said each time he landed they had to remove all rank and insiginia, only to replace it again after the beach head was secure, so this could also be an explination.

One factor that could be why the Rank has no wear on it is that he could have been promoted (or demoted) right at the wars end. He could have been an acting Staff Sergeant and went back down to Sergeant.

At the museum where I volunteer, I commonly have seen BD's that the widow or vet has tried to restore, but thier memory does not serve them correct. This could be an explination for the wound stripes. But then again the MPs are not commonly on the Front line. Unless he was wounded in the Infantry and then transfered to the MP's due to injuries where he had to change his shoulder titles.

Is this a best dress uniform? because the guy could have also have had everything reapplied when he had it tailored at the end of the war.

But then again, this could be a totally put together uniform, where some guy is trying to make some coin. I don't think we can tell with out actualy feeling the uniform. I have seen many real uniforms donated by vets to my museum that most collectors would classify as crap because it doesn't fit a perfect set of criteria.
Cam

[Antoni Zawadzki]

But then again, this could be a totally put together uniform, where some guy is trying to make some coin. I don't think we can tell with out actualy feeling the uniform.

Hello Cam,

Many thanks for your input.

Once again, this is not my tunic, so I am impartial either way as to whether or not it is authentic. It's a lot of fun to learn a thing or two about Canadian BD tunics - something I know virtually nothing about.

I have to admit that the mislocated wound bars strike me as a serious flaw that is difficult to reconcile. But on the other hand I can’t escape the ‘behind the scenes’ stuff that pictures can’t convey – where I found it, the manner in which I found it, and the look and feel of the tunic. Everything was right - there were no ‘red flags’. It was definitely not presented to me as though “…some guy is trying to make some coin…”. I’ve been in this racket long enough to have developed a bit of a sixth sense when it comes to this.

Lastly, and most importantly, your closing sentence really tells it like it is:

I have seen many real uniforms donated by vets to my museum that most collectors would classify as crap because it doesn't fit a perfect set of criteria.

Amen. This is so true when it come to the Polish uniforms that interest me ! And I suspect that this also holds true for uniforms of other nations. While there may indeed be a perfect set of criteria, most uniforms will deviate in one respect or another.

Cheers,
Tony

[Infanteer]

The rank badges appear to be post war (1950's) issue as there are no embroidered lines between the stripes as per the late war issue rank badges. To me there are enough little points that point to either a made up tunic, or perhaps someone has added rank and wound stripes post war to spice up the tunic. I don't think the tunic would have been used post war because the post war tunics had an open collar design.

[DJT]

Think about this Battledress Jacket logically. Forgetting for a moment that the metal wound stripes are not only on the wrong arm and in the wrong position ask yourself why they are there? Well obviously the guy was wounded, how? Well he was in action. Ok so he was overseas. Then where are his overseas stripes? I also did a check on the lanyard and apparently for Provost Corps the lanyard should be entirely red not blue and red like the one present. I would also tend to agree with Infanteer on the stripes. They are not the type I would prefer to see present on a wartime jacket and indeed I have seen that exact same style of stripe on many Canadian army jackets of 1950s vintage. Finally I'm not sure if the Provost Corps were exempt in wearing them but usually if a soldier was overseas he was assigned to one of the Canadian army divisions which would mean the wear of army div flashes? To me there are too many things here pointing to a made up/messed with piece. While it is true that it is common to find a genuine badged BD missing a badge or two that does not mean the remaining badges will be misplaced. A real unmessed with Battledress just shouts at you and wear will be consistent on all insignia present. Also just because this BD is dusty and is sitting in a thrift/second hand store means absolutely nothing. Some kid in the 1950s could have picked the BD up, bought some surplus badges and made it up for halloween or fancy dress. So this is sitting in a second hand store somewhere. Great its a no brainer, buy it for the jacket alone. A wartime BD by itself in this condition is worth $80-$100.

[Antoni Zawadzki]

Hi Des,

Thank you for the added comments and information. Yes, of course the circumstances of the present, the honesty of the current vendor, etc. do not preclude the possibility of the scenario that you suggest. This did not escape me. 60 years is a long time, and much can happen to an old WWII dated tunic over the decades.

"...Forgetting for a moment that the metal wound stripes are not only on the wrong arm..."

Strike 1

"...Then where are his overseas stripes?..."

Good point. Not being knowledgeable on Canadian uniform regulations whatsoever I am unaware of such insignia. Strike 2.

"...I also did a check on the lanyard and apparently for Provost Corps the lanyard should be entirely red not blue and red like the one present...."

Good research ! Strike 3. Things aren't looking good.

And then the dating of the stripes and other issues...

Thanks Des. Your efforts may have rendered a verdict on this one.

Case closed ?

Cheers,
Tony

Think about this Battledress Jacket logically. Forgetting for a moment that the metal wound stripes are not only on the wrong arm and in the wrong position ask yourself why they are there? Well obviously the guy was wounded, how? Well he was in action. Ok so he was overseas. Then where are his overseas stripes? I also did a check on the lanyard and apparently for Provost Corps the lanyard should be entirely red not blue and red like the one present. I would also tend to agree with Infanteer on the stripes. They are not the type I would prefer to see present on a wartime jacket and indeed I have seen that exact same style of stripe on many Canadian army jackets of 1950s vintage. Finally I'm not sure if the Provost Corps were exempt in wearing them but usually if a soldier was overseas he was assigned to one of the Canadian army divisions which would mean the wear of army div flashes? To me there are too many things here pointing to a made up/messed with piece. While it is true that it is common to find a genuine badged BD missing a badge or two that does not mean the remaining badges will be misplaced. A real unmessed with Battledress just shouts at you and wear will be consistent on all insignia present. Also just because this BD is dusty and is sitting in a thrift/second hand store means absolutely nothing. Some kid in the 1950s could have picked the BD up, bought some surplus badges and made it up for halloween or fancy dress. So this is sitting in a second hand store somewhere. Great its a no brainer, buy it for the jacket alone. A wartime BD by itself in this condition is worth $80-$100.

[DJT]

Hi Tony,

Am I right in thinking the vendor albeit a honest guy thinks he has a golden piece and wants a hefty price for it? If you can get it cheaply, buy it for the jacket alone.

Here is a genuine badged Canadian BD that came direct from the family. Note the correct lay out and positioning of the badges including the wound stripes.

[Adrian Stevenson]

Hi Tony, I think Des has summed it up nicely. But as mentioned the BD and insignia still has a "value", only buy it if cheap to resell as parts.


Cheers, Ade.

[Infanteer]

Just one final point about the red (and sometimes single white) "service chevrons"... they are for service during the war regardless if the soldier served overseas or not. They were worn by soldiers here in Canada who never made it across the pond as well as by those who served in England and the rest of Europe. This differs from the practice in place during WW1 which is likely the reason for the confusion. In fact, even during the war the regulations changed several times with regards to who was authorized to wear them and on which arm (initially the left forearm and then later the right forearm). For more information on the Canadian soldier check out www.canadiansoldiers.com Hope this helps.

Steve