Are these unit titles from WW2?

[Infanteer]

4

[force136]

No Backings???

Hi Infanteer

I would agree with these guys that some appear to have a post war backing- however you really have to be careful what you say about- I dont like that backing or that one. I know I've argued this with Jack before and I apologize for bringing it up yet again- However I have no intention of writing anything in the future on specifically British manufacturered cloth badges- That said. I know there are certain types of backing we can all ID from experience as being post war or even reproduction. However you have to be careful. If any of you guys are ever in Ottawa- Canada and are interested, I can give you the National Archive Record Group and Volume numbers that have sample boards of Canadian Infantry shoulder titles and formation badges made by dozens of different British firms from the years 1940-1946. Many of these boards show the sample badge from each tender for the unit CO or Ordnance to decide from- usually based on their artwork-suggestions or the standard CMHQ pattern of badge ie Brigade - Army Troops etc. being used at the time. When you turn these individual badges over - I am sure you will get a shock. Every conceivable backing you can think of is there. Over time company backing material changed as their stocks changed. We have a gold mine of info on your badge production during WW2. Every company I've ever heard of including many I have not- are represented. You get good quality woven wool examples to cheapo crushed felt. The backings go from a very coarse hessian like weave material to almost a bed sheet like thin cotton.

Anyway its all there and if you are ever here- worth a look.

There is also-scattered through other volumes -samples of plastic badges-these made in the UK-US and Canada during WW2 .

So be careful before you judge a backing- it seems as though every clothier- military outfitter- embroiderer - granny in England were making these things. There was no set rule to what you will find on the back- apart from the known repro and other materials that did not exist in WW2.

Anyway my 2 cents.

Ken

What are the A.C.C. and C.M.P. titles?

[lnijherald]

Hi Steve,
ACC: Army Catering Corps
CMP: Corps of Military Police

Ken, thanks for your thought I had no idea there was such variation.
I just recieved some titles I think are of wartime production and even the front surprised me a bit. The stitching is fairely loose, something I'd rather expect to see on a later title.

Cheers, Luc

[Guy]

Hi Ken,

That is an extremely interesting piece of news. I have been planning a jaunt to Canada for some time so the opportunity to examine hundreds of manufacturers sealed patterns has just clinched it, thank you .

As regards backings I agree entirely. Having owned and handled literally thousands of shoulder titles over the years I can concurr that there are scores of backing types and some which are probably unique to certain runs, manufacturers etc. Also the quality issue is correct as some pieces are truly dire and have more in common with the reproductions.

As I said in my post I would need to handle the pieces to be sure but a few definitely seem to be late or early post war from the photos.

The use of Nylon in wartime titles is still rather a moot point. I have no proof that it was never used during the war but by the same token I have never encountered a title that contained nylon that I was happy was wartime.

The use of nylon and the change of the stitch patterns seem to virtually co-incide and both seem to have happened in 1946. It is interesting to compare an unquestionably wartime piece with a just post war example. If you do this you will see the change of direction in the stitching and the nylon Bobbin thread.

Best Regards, Guy.

[Infanteer]

Thanks for all the great responses everyone.... more than I ever expected.

Cheers,

Steve

[force136]

Canadian Sample Badges

Hi Guy

The samples in question are located in RG 24 and are called cloth or distinguishing patches. When you come over just let me know and I will give you the actual volume ( box ) numbers. Many have been lost or stolen over the years but you can see where they once were. I did mention to the archives that the badges were there in order that they can protect them. I am not sure what they plan to do as they were not aware the badges were in the paper files until I told them. The last time I checked they were still there. The only other place they could move them to would be the War Museum. So either way you could have access to them. Apart from the odd board there were envelopes from manufacturers with sample badges inside- however many of these are missing- including the ones I most wanted to see- 1 Cdn Para Bn. However- like I said- you will get a good idea of the myriad of materials used to make badges. It is also interesting to point out that Canada actually intended to make printed badges here as well as a Bevo type weave. These documents and samples are there as well.

Ken

Hi Ken,

That is an extremely interesting piece of news. I have been planning a jaunt to Canada for some time so the opportunity to examine hundreds of manufacturers sealed patterns has just clinched it, thank you .

As regards backings I agree entirely. Having owned and handled literally thousands of shoulder titles over the years I can concurr that there are scores of backing types and some which are probably unique to certain runs, manufacturers etc. Also the quality issue is correct as some pieces are truly dire and have more in common with the reproductions.

As I said in my post I would need to handle the pieces to be sure but a few definitely seem to be late or early post war from the photos.

The use of Nylon in wartime titles is still rather a moot point. I have no proof that it was never used during the war but by the same token I have never encountered a title that contained nylon that I was happy was wartime.

The use of nylon and the change of the stitch patterns seem to virtually co-incide and both seem to have happened in 1946. It is interesting to compare an unquestionably wartime piece with a just post war example. If you do this you will see the change of direction in the stitching and the nylon Bobbin thread.

Best Regards, Guy.

[Guy]

Fantastic stuff, thanks Ken.

Sounds like these files could contain the answers to a lot of questions. I look forward to my visit with some anticipation.

Yours, Guy.

[aussie jason]

Hi



Instead of starting a new thread, i thought that this would fit in here. I think these titles are post war but before i remove them from the wartime BD they currently reside on, i thought i should check as i know very little about Brit insignia. and would hate to remove some original insignia (though i dont think i have to worry too much)
Thanks for any help

Cheers
Jason

[aussie jason]

Guy Thanks for your help, but please clear your PM box


Cheers
Jason