Polish Commando Dress

[JEROEN1944]

Hi Guys,

What about this Polish Commandodress from No 10 commando, looks it original?


Cheers Jeroen

[Antoni Zawadzki]

Hello Jeroen,

Nice BDU tunic!

Its originality is impossible to verify from this picture alone. In fact, conclusive determination of authenticity based on viewing digital photographs alone is never really possible.

A few quick observations…

The various components of the tunic do look good, but the tunic does have a ‘fresh’ appearance. This could be nothing more than just a clean tunic in superb original condition, or it could mean that it’s a recent re-creation using authentic parts.

This is the first commando tunic I recall seeing with the Poland shoulder titles. The ones I’ve seen in the past simply have the two Commando patches. I’d have to check my reference materials for regulations on this (I’m writing from work at the moment – shhh!). The shoulder titles are a correct wartime issue type.

The Polish War Medal and PSZ/Z Cross of Valour ribbons are appropriate – although they are sewn on in a rather crude manner. Also, the Polish decorations are often coupled with the typical British campaign ribbons which are missing in this instance The green fourragere braided cord looks correct. The collar tabs also look OK – although the ‘secondary’ backing colour is not sized according to regulation specs. No need for alarm though as these regularly deviate from the regulation dimensions in one respect or another.

The pocket badge appears to be a pre-war 70th Infantry Regiment badge, which is unusual to find on one of these tunics. The wearing of pre-war regimental badges was occasionally done as a tribute to the regiment the soldier belonged to, and perhaps even fought under, prior to and during the German invasion in 1939.

I’m sure others here with more knowledge on the Commando uniforms will be able to add to these few comments.

But overall – a nice looking tunic. Thanks for posting it. I love seeing Polish uniform tunics!!

Cheers,

Tony

[JEROEN1944]

Hello Tony,

Thank you for youre answer, i met the guy today who sold it, and its looked very oky to me. Its not so clean as it looks at the picture, it got some staines.
The patches looked original mounted to me. But you can never tell for sure!
Ans indeed you cant see from a picture if its oke, you have to got it in your hands. Theres one odd thing, theres a parawing on the other sleeve!
Theres also a commando kangol beret from 1945 with it, whats 100% original! Im not sure from the badge whats on it, a little polish eagel(looks sterling silver) on a green backing. It belongs to the BD. I will post some more pics later!!

Jeroen

[Antoni Zawadzki]

Hello Jeroen,

Yes - please post additional pictures.

Also - please post a close up photo of the badge on the left breast pocket including the reverse of the badge and the fastener nut if possible. I am very curious about this badge.

Many thanks,

Tony

[JEROEN1944]

Hello Tony,


Here are some more pics, they are not so good, i'll bet i never win a price with it..

[GregK]

Hello,


I hate to be the one to tell you this but thi grouping is a bad one. There are a few dead giveaways on this.

- Firstly the Commando insignia is all bad. The font on the Commando title is wrong and the Combined Ops patch is a relatively recent repro. The eagle is far too "fat" for an original.

- Secondly. The stitching of the insignia is all very recent. I have never seen an original BD with insignia stitched to it the way this one has.

- Thirdly. The beret is all wrong also. To be honest I'm not even sure that it's an original period beret. I have seen some repros of black tanker berets recently and they are marked very similiarly.

- Fourthly. The badge is made by Panasiuk. Panasiuk never made original wartime or pre-war badges. They made "collector copies" as they called them.

I will try to provide some photos of No. 10 Commando Poles that I have in a book or magazine (not fortunate enough to own originals ). They clearly show correct insignia and how it is worn. It will also show that they did actually wear the POLAND title with the No. 10 title. I will also try to post a side by side comparison of an original Combined Ops patch next to a similar repro as the one on the tunic.

Hope that I was of some help. Sorry to have been the bearer of bad news. If you have further questions then I will try to answer the best I can.

Cheers,
Greg

[JEROEN1944]

Dear Greg,


Thank you for your opinion, i can bring the BD back if i want to, so thats oke for bringing the bad news. Im 100% that the beret is oke, but the insigna????
On the other sleeve is a parawing and thats oke to! But the only thing i have some doubts about is indeed the commando No10 tittle ,COP badge and badge on the beret. The Poland tittle is oke to.
I'll make some better picd tomorrow, if you want i can give you my email!
Hope for some more opinions.


Cheers Jeroen

[GregK]

Hi Jeroen,


I hope you can get your money back and I really feel bad about being the bearer of bad news. With respect to the beret all I can say is that it appeared to me from the photo that it looked similar to recent repro tanker berets that I've seen. It very well may be a legitimate unissued green beret but I am almost certain that the insignia was added recently.

I also agree that the POLAND title is an original but as these are plentiful and relatively inexpensive then it's quite believeable that the fakers would be using some original insignia to mask the bad stuff.

I have a friend who specializes in Commando insignia and have asked him to share some pictures of good original titles. When I get the pictures then you'll see the difference right away. As a side note you should go onto eBay and check the seller by the name of cunnard. He is a seller of repro special forces insignia. If you notice his Combined Ops patches look very similar to the ones on the BD.

You can always feel free to email me at anytime for any reason. My email address is: sgt.fury@shaw.ca

Cheers,
Greg

[Antoni Zawadzki]

Hello Jeroen,

Thanks for the supplemental pics.

I have has some time to dig into my reference material since my “quick observations”, but I see that a resident expert has made an appearance with unfortunate bad news. Greg has been more blunt in addressing some of the tunics peculiarities than I was. But the truth, even if it is bad news, is infinitely better than a lie that would lead you to a false belief that these are authentic items.

The beret is of a type that may have made an appearance on the market in the last few years. These are highly suspect. I have photos on file of a beret in black tankers version that has the identical makers stamp and date and is almost certainly fake. I can send the pics to you if you wish. The oval patch (with the miniature metal navy eagle) typically displays an embroidered eagle. I have never seen it serve as a backing for a metal eagle.

The close up pics of the breast pocket badge confirms my initial ID of the badge as that of the 70th Infantry Regiment of the pre-war Polish army. As correctly stated by Greg, this badge is a recent Panasiuk made replica. And to find this displayed on this particular tunic is unusual, although as mentioned previously, the wearing of pre-war badges as a tribute to the soldier’s military service prior to the war was occasionally done.

It’s good to know that you are able to obtain a refund. Now we all stand forewarned and forearmed when this tunic appears on eBay!

Regards,

Tony

[JEROEN1944]

Hello Jeroen,

Thanks for the supplemental pics.

I have has some time to dig into my reference material since my “quick observations”, but I see that a resident expert has made an appearance with unfortunate bad news. Greg has been more blunt in addressing some of the tunics peculiarities than I was. But the truth, even if it is bad news, is infinitely better than a lie that would lead you to a false belief that these are authentic items.

The beret is of a type that may have made an appearance on the market in the last few years. These are highly suspect. I have photos on file of a beret in black tankers version that has the identical makers stamp and date and is almost certainly fake. I can send the pics to you if you wish. The oval patch (with the miniature metal navy eagle) typically displays an embroidered eagle. I have never seen it serve as a backing for a metal eagle.

The close up pics of the breast pocket badge confirms my initial ID of the badge as that of the 70th Infantry Regiment of the pre-war Polish army. As correctly stated by Greg, this badge is a recent Panasiuk made replica. And to find this displayed on this particular tunic is unusual, although as mentioned previously, the wearing of pre-war badges as a tribute to the soldier’s military service prior to the war was occasionally done.

It’s good to know that you are able to obtain a refund. Now we all stand forewarned and forearmed when this tunic appears on eBay!

Regards,

Tony

Hello Tony and Greg,

Thanks for your interest! I'l send you a PM.

Best Regards Jeroen

[George C.]

Just a quick note about Panasiuk - - - - -

I met Andrzej, the son, who was/is making the replica regimental badges back in 1980 (unfortunately, my last time in Poland)..... He was not doing this to fool anyone - that was done by the unscrupulous - the badges were selling for an average Black Market exchange rate (IE - the real one at the time) for $3.00 each.

What was interesting was that Andrzej’s father was a pre-war badge maker/engraver, and was still in business then down the road from the old Town on Nowy Swiat.... A bit of a crabby guy, the father since the war made only miniature badges for veterans. What is interesting is that with the shucking of the “Peoples” traditions imposed on the Polish Army, and going back to the traditions of unit pocket badges (many of them bearing reference and tradition to pre-war and exile units) are often produced for the current Polish Forces by Panasiuk

[Antoni Zawadzki]

Just a quick note about Panasiuk … He was not doing this to fool anyone - that was done by the unscrupulous…

Hello George,

Very interesting post. I agree that it is important to make a clear distinction between a maker of replicas for the collector market, such as Andrzej Panasiuk, and the lowlife thieves who are bent on deceit to make a quick profit off of the unsuspecting.

Incidentally, I understand that the junior Mr. Panasiuk passed away just recently.

.... A bit of a crabby guy, the father since the war made only miniature badges for veterans. …

I suppose in some respects one can understand the sour disposition and not fault him too strongly when considering what he must have gone through in his lifetime as a resident of Poland. The full scope of the tragedy that this nation has endured is something that even I, after being surrounded with the accounts of relatives and family members all of my life, and a devourer of countless books on the subject, still have difficulty fully comprehending. Poland’s terrible betrayal and extent of suffering is truly mind-numbing at times.

Best regards,
Tony

[George C.]

Incidentally, I understand that the junior Mr. Panasiuk passed away just recently.

Sad to hear.... he was a nice guy who spent more time with me than he had to.... I hope that somehow his firm will continue the line that began with his father


I suppose in some respects one can understand the sour disposition and not fault him too strongly when considering what he must have gone through in his lifetime as a resident of Poland. The full scope of the tragedy that this nation has endured is something that even I, after being surrounded with the accounts of relatives and family members all of my life, and a devourer of countless books on the subject, still have difficulty fully comprehending. Poland’s terrible betrayal and extent of suffering is truly mind-numbing at times.

Best regards,
Tony[/QUOTE]

Yes, a sour disposition was common then.... the location, as I said, was on Nowy Swiat.... the Castle was being rebuilt, and just down the street was Holy Cross church, and all I could see in my mind were the black and white photos of the church during and after the Uprising.

Yes, the man had every right to be sour, it was a long haul from 1939 to 1980 for him.....

This was late July, 1980, and all of Poland was pregnant with anticipation of something, and there was a palpable anger in the air.
I attended the “ceremonies” at Powazki Cemetery on August 1st.... I was with AK Kampinos most of the time, but it was a stirring occasion with half of the city there, and all the different unit graves covered with flowers and candles.... it was like Woodstock with tears.

Afterwards I went back to family in Gdansk, and one morning my cousins went to work at the shipyards, and didn’t come home until a few weeks later, but that is another story.

[lnijherald]

Hi Jeroen,
I'm not going to comment on the commando or Polish insignia, I think all is said about those.
When we meet I'd love to take a better look at the beret, I just can't put my finger on it. Is it just a beret in great condition or indeed a put-together? Impossible to tell from your pictures, better start practising with your camera before becoming a daddy .
One small question, do the brass grommets pass through the green wool AND the black cotton lining?
Cheers, Luc

[DJT]

The beret looks ok but its never been issued or worn. The badge has probably been added. The BD, well a genuine example would be extremely rare. This is the sort of thing you could only really trust if it had provenance. From the photo the BD looks entirely made up, the commando insignia looks wrong so as others have suggested a big thumbs down Maybe keep the beret if the price for that was reasonable?