Polish Vets to head UK Victory parade!

[Antoni Zawadzki]

Did anyone see the recent series made by the BBC called "Gladiators of WW2"...

Hi Des,

No, I have not. But I am grateful to you for bringing this to my attention and will certainly seek out this program.

… and they do roll out that old chestnut of the Polish cavalry bravely charging German tanks (they even had some dodgy footage showing what appeared to be exactly that although who knows if it was genuine footage?...

Des, my friend…does this question really need to be asked ?!! Of course it was not genuine footage !!!

... it would be nice to go a year without hearing about Polish cavalry charging tanks...

Sigh…

[DJT]

Antoni,

First of all, relax! and save your sighs.

I said "they rolled out the old chestnut of Polish cavalry charging German tanks". That indicates I share the same standpoint as you does it not?

However they did have footage showing German armoured vehicles going against cavalry (impossible to positively identify). I did not elaborate but I was simply wondering if it was genuine footage of some pre-war maneouvres or war games, or recreated footage done for german cinema in 1939. I think a lot of myths start close to the event and its quite possible that the Germans were the first to claim that the Poles charged them with cavalry (Perhaps to suggest how backward they were in their eyes) and the propaganda unit might have re-created some footage to show the people back home.

[leigh kitchen]

Ok, Why didn't this happen in 1990 when Poland over through communism or even after Stalins death? In my opinion if it happened in 1990 it would have some validity now it looks like a cheap political gimmick.

Yep, Blair & co. sucking up to his buddies within the EU?
Can't even stage the event on a day with any real significance other than that it's convenient for MPs.

I'm not critical of the Poles leading (maybe it's to do with that goose step), but I suspect there's the usual agenda of people who demean such occassions by viewing them simply as sound-bite or photo opportunities at play here.

[Ciaran Byrne]

Great thread. Thank you Adrian for posting that article.

I’m in agreement with Greg that it is never too late to set the record straight.
Besides the lack of recognition for the very significant contribution of the Poles to the Allied victory, there are still other issues that need to be addressed. Historical myths and untruths range from mythical saber charges against German armour in the September 1939 Campaign, to the recently propagated lie of joint Polish / Nazi annihilation of the Jews in “Polish Concentration Camps”.

There is still much to be done – and the cause is worthwhile.

Best regards,

Tony

Not to mention the highly suspicious death of General Sikorsky.

[Gary Jucha]

Sikorski !

Sikorski !!!!!

(Sorry Ciaran ... But the spelling bugs me !!)

Gary J.

Not to mention the highly suspicious death of General Sikorsky.

[robert60446]

"...Historical myths and untruths range from mythical saber charges against German armour in the September 1939..." Campaign
Tony

Hi Antoni,
it is not a myth, here is quote from "Panzer Leader" by General Heinz Guderian:
"The Polish Pomorska Cavalry Brigade, in ignorance of the nature of our tanks, had charged them with swords and lances and had suffered tremendous losses." Page 72 "Da CAPO" 2nd edition.

[George C.]

HOLD THE PHONE.....

The film clips are from a German propaganda film Kampfgeschwader Lützow. A “documentary” about an Luftwaffe Unit.

In other footage from the film, the Polish cavalry is wearing M-34 helmets, and rather than having the sabers properly on the left side of the saddle, they are SLUNG from their belts on the RIGHT sid.

And as far as Guderian being a source for this garbage, the passage was rather self-serving for the author.... I suppose that Heinz witnessed this with his own eyes?

[DJT]

Thanks for the info George.

[robert60446]

And as far as Guderian being a source for this garbage, the passage was rather self-serving for the author.... I suppose that Heinz witnessed this with his own eyes?

Hi George,
no offence, but somehow i have more confidence in General Guderian then your sources...But we are missing the point here. The important thing is, that Polish soldiers were brave, did a lot of amazing things and they for sure deserve to be at the honor spot for this parade.

[George C.]

Hi George,
no offence, but somehow i have more confidence in General Guderian then your sources...But we are missing the point here. The important thing is, that Polish soldiers were brave, did a lot of amazing things and they for sure deserve to be at the honor spot for this parade.

Hello Robert,

and my regrets for my strident tone.....

The subject has been flogged at the Axis History Forum, which is not up today.... when it is, you might do a search


http://forum.axishistory.com/index.php

These sights tell the story as I know it ( have been fortunate over the past to have known personally a number of former Polish cavalrymen, and have on my shelf some 20-odd regimental histories published in London, and have, until it ceased publication, been a subscriber to the PRZEGLAD KAWALERII I BRON PANCERNA {The Cavalry and Armored Forces Review } Published in London.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_cavalry

(The casualty figures in the above site for Krojanty are seriously flawed)

http://info-poland.buffalo.edu/class...rzepinski.html

http://www.panzerworld.net/fallweiss.html

As and added treat, found this wonderful website today that is a photo-rich biography of a Polish soldier.

http://www.freedominmessiah.com/jan_pirog.html

[vicjoy1945]

HOLD THE PHONE.....

The film clips are from a German propaganda film Kampfgeschwader Lützow. A “documentary” about an Luftwaffe Unit.

In other footage from the film, the Polish cavalry is wearing M-34 helmets, and rather than having the sabers properly on the left side of the saddle, they are SLUNG from their belts on the RIGHT sid.

And as far as Guderian being a source for this garbage, the passage was rather self-serving for the author.... I suppose that Heinz witnessed this with his own eyes?

Hi George !!

Speaking of Polish cavalry...I don't know if you saw this discussion line in the "International" forum that I posted...so here's a link:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...3&page=1&pp=15

Do you have any references regarding this unit and/or this cavalry officer in particular ??? Since these photos have been well-received and there seems to be interest in the album...I will probably shoot more pictures this weekend and post them.

Coincidentally, my father's older brother was a professional soldier in Poland during the 1920s and 1930s who fought against the Bolsheviks at Warsaw. He served as an officer in the Polish cavalry. Perhaps you may have some information on him too !?! His name was Jan Dojlida and he was from Bialystok.

Thanks,

Vic

[leigh kitchen]

Hi George,
no offence, but somehow i have more confidence in General Guderian then your sources...But we are missing the point here. The important thing is, that Polish soldiers were brave, did a lot of amazing things and they for sure deserve to be at the honor spot for this parade.

I don't have any deep feelings concerning who goes where in this parade, but it strikes me as a little strange that British troops are'nt leading such a parade in Britain.
It does'nt mean a lot to me, but it might mean something to British veterans.
Personally I'm just pleased it's not the French, with a living history De Gaule out front of the band......

[atcase]

Hi all,

the burser at my old school was a Polish Para who i am sure dropped at operation Market garden. never really spoke about his expiriences but may be i can find the write up in a school magazine.
Ashley

[Antoni Zawadzki]

Jumping in again, but a bit late…

I said "they rolled out the old chestnut of Polish cavalry charging German tanks". That indicates I share the same standpoint as you does it not? .

Des, I apologize for the condescending tone of my reply. No offense was intended, just my frustration showing through. Thank you for the additional clarification. Without the added explanation it sounded odd to be asking if the footage of cavalry charging tanks was authentic if one in fact held the position that it was a myth.

And I need to clarify my position. There were undoubtedly several instances where horse mounted cavalry units did encounter German armoured formations in hectic battle conditions during the September Campaign. I know of at least two. The Colonel Mastelarz incident is perhaps the most well known, from whence the myth spawned . It is worth repeating:

On September 1, 1939, the first day of the German attack, the 18th Polish Lancer Regiment came upon a battalion of Germans in a field. A charge was led against the surprised Germans and resulted in them suffering heavy casualties. Just at this time a group of German armoured vehicles arrived at the scene and immediately opened fire on the exposed cavalry. As a result the Poles lost 20 men including the commanding officer, Colonel Kazimierz Mastelarz. During a battlefield visit by Italian journalists the following day they were informed by the Germans that the Poles had charged against their tanks and were annihilated. This complete fabrication ended up in print and was afterwards seized by the ever vigilant Nazi propaganda machine. In typical German thoroughness they ensured that it was widely publicized.

Ironically, In the words of the Propaganda Minister of the Third Reich himself, Dr Joseph Goebbels: “Repeat a lie a thousand times and it becomes the truth ...”

I do not dispute that incidents such as the one involving the 18th Polish Lancer Regiment occurred. My bone of contention lies with the idea that cavalry charges with lances and sabers was formal Polish military doctrine. Such an idea is, of course, absurd. And the references to this in many historical accounts are often done so, as you well stated, “…to suggest how backward (the Poles) were…”.

As and added treat, found this wonderful website today that is a photo-rich biography of a Polish soldier.

http://www.freedominmessiah.com/jan_pirog.html

Jurek, Great site!! Thank you for the “added treat”.

Cheers,
Tony

[Mr Piter]

hello !


that's great that You remember Polish soldiers who fought in ww2 . we should never forget that Poland was first nation who fought with nazis and communism!

we were alone against germans and russians, and we fought with great courage - we need to remember that hard days of september 1939 ...

best regards
Mr piter