Polish berets versus RAF ones

[vicjoy1945]

Hi Luc,

Good eye. Yes there are two economy plastic pieces there. I have a couple of others like them but they are in groupings and not pictured. Both of the ones that are pictured are marked to A. Stanley and Sons. If you'd like some close ups of them or any of the others than please feel free to ask and I'll take some clear shots (or try to anyways ).

Cheers,
Greg

Great badges (and berets) guys !!

If I have a chance this weekend, I'll shoot pics of some of the badges out of my collection...I LOVE to see Polish exile militaria...especially since my father served with the Polish II Corp during WWII so there's a very, very warm place in my heart for these items !!

Thanks agains !!!

Vic

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[George C.]

Hello guys....

The Plastic "economy" Orzelek badges were more common in the Brigade than often supposed. Some were worn in the field during MARKET GARDEN

[GregK]

Hi George,


Good point about the plastic birds being worn by the paras. In fact if you visit the Airborne Museum in Oosterbeek they have an example of the plastic badge on display along with other Polish para insignia right in the first room. I believe that I have photos of these being worn somewhere in my files. I'll try to dig them up and post them.

Cheers,
Greg

[George C.]

Hi George,


Good point about the plastic birds being worn by the paras. In fact if you visit the Airborne Museum in Oosterbeek they have an example of the plastic badge on display along with other Polish para insignia right in the first room. I believe that I have photos of these being worn somewhere in my files. I'll try to dig them up and post them.

Cheers,
Greg

I saw them in Oosterbeek..... and what appears odd is the beret with a plastic Orzelek has an officers' rank star.... but a 3rd Bn guy here in the States had his beret with the exact same insignia combination.

[Billy B]

Hi Billy,

Have you any eagles yourself that you can post photos of?

I'm sorry Des but I can't post any.

[Billy B]

Hello guys....

The Plastic "economy" Orzelek badges were more common in the Brigade than often supposed. Some were worn in the field during MARKET GARDEN

I have never seen any proof that the plastic badges were more common in the brigade that anywhere else I also don't believe that they wore “special larger” badges as GregK stated.

I believe that the only thing that can be said with certainty about the Para badges is that they preferred to wear metal cap badges of the “British Pattern” sometimes referred to as the “1940” pattern. In the few pictures from operation MG that I have seen they are wearing such badges. The “British Pattern” badges are the ones on Ades GregK beret and the one shown by Inijherald.

[George C.]

I have never seen any proof that the plastic badges were more common in the brigade that anywhere else I also don't believe that they wore “special larger” badges as GregK stated.

I believe that the only thing that can be said with certainty about the Para badges is that they preferred to wear metal cap badges of the “British Pattern” sometimes referred to as the “1940” pattern. In the few pictures from operation MG that I have seen they are wearing such badges. The “British Pattern” badges are the ones on Ades GregK beret and the one shown by Inijherald.

Billy B....

I never stated that they "were more common in the brigade that anywhere else," but " were more common in the Brigade than often supposed"

That stated, as the plastic badges were fairly despised in general..... (except for the Poldolski Lancers who had their own regimental badge made - photo below) and a number were worn at Arnhem ( I have one given to me by a NCO who wore it there, saw one in Oosterbeek that was found there, shown by the man who found it, it appears in a film clip of Poles loading a glider at Manston, and I believe it also appears in a still photo that I cannot remember where it is) that perhaps in fact they MIGHT be "more common in the brigade that anywhere else," - -

Certain generalizations might be made.... but there are exceptions a close family friend wore the crude Orzelek issued to him in Palestine, though sans any silver finish, and in plain brass, because it “bought him luck.”

Lieutenant Smaczny wore the small eagle on his beret (similar to the one for the pre-war forage cap) and there is a photo of a woman in Driel wearing this same type on her dress.

The troops of the 1st Armored Division in the field usually worn embroidered or bullion eagles.... but when gussied up in their best “picking up girls” uniforms, wore metal ones.... and these usually appear in portrait photos.

Within the 2nd Corps..... as you know, practically anything went - especially after hostilities.

AS to a “larger” eagle in the Brigade.... The same eagle that I have on my beret (from a 1st Battalion Cadet Officer at the time, but updated with a star after subsequent promotion is identical with the one that Gary’s father wore, and two examples shown to me by US Troop Carrier personnel given to them by Poles, are a tad bigger (not much) than usual, are heavier than usual, have two wide blades (up and down) for mounting and often broke hence held on the beret with thread (as pictured, and on the example in my collection). While I do not think that this particular eagle was particular to the Parachute Brigade, remember, that when the berets were switch to the darker color MOST of the earlier light color berets had either embroidered or bullion eagles, and that the order for the metal eagles must have been massive, and went into Bde stores.

That said, before the Bde left Scotland for the Midlands in 1944..... the forage cap with eagle was often worn off duty by Bde members....

Berets were in short supply and the legendary fire and brimstone of Sosabowski would rain down on ANYONE who did not have his beret during duty or formation..... It seemed that women were prone to stealing them..... as the gent who wore the brass eagle told me, they “could tell by your rank and para badge how much you made per month down to the penny, and that was all you needed to get the advantage of an infantryman or tanker,” but often wearing the beret had an element of risk..... if by dawns early light, if you did not have your beret after an encounter with either “bed and breakfast” or "John Barleycorn," you had a heap or trouble on your hands until the berets were more plentiful.

Cheers,

George C.

[GregK]

Hello all,


I'm happy with the direction this thread is taking. It's becoming very eduactional and will benefit all that read it. Fantastic.

Billy,

Please note that I never stated that the para brigade wore "special larger" eagles. My exact words were as follows: An interesting note: the eagles on Polish para berets were slightly larger than the standard Polish beret eagle. A fact that George confirmed. I never stated that they were double the size or anything ridiculous but when holding them side by side you can notice a slight difference. I do have a couple of different references that elude to that fact but nowhere do they say that they were special badges, and for that matter, neither did I. Also if you read back to George's post he never stated that the "plastics" were more common in the Brigade but just that they were more common than supposed. A fact that he reitterated in his last post as well.

George,

Many thanks for your posts. They have been very informative and an excellent learning tool for beginners. As a matter of fact that thanks goes to all who posted constructively and shared photos of their birds. Let's all keep this one rolling as I think that there is still much to be said and learned.

Cheers,
Greg

[Billy B]

OK so lets sort this thread out a bit. We agree on the following :

1. Plastic badges were used in the Paras sporadically

1. Metal badges of the “British Pattern” were in the majority after the Beret switch.

Things we are unsure about

1. Size of the badge on para berets.

My take on the “slightly larger” badges




I don't agree that we can state that the badges used by the paras were slightly larger as stated by GregK “the eagles on Polish para berets were slightly larger than the standard Polish beret eagle “ 2 or 3 examples on berets can't be considered evidence of widespread use. The “British Pattern” badge used by the Paras was also used by other units as stated above.

“British Pattern” badges were made by a variety of makers and at various times and they very in size slightly, they also vary in the look and manufacture and material used. In my opinion this is the reason for “slightly larger” badges appearing in the Brigade, but I don't believe that we can chrisen “slightly larger” badges as being “Para badges” Just like we can't do the same for plastic ones. In my opinion a variety of “British Pattern” of badges from different manufactures was used. The fact that a few “slightly larger “ badges have Para provenance is simply a coincidence. All that can be said on the evidence currently presented is that “slightly larger” badges were used sporadically.




The one on GregK beret I would call “British Pattern 1” this one can vary slightly in size etc. The one Ade shows I would call “British Pattern 2” It is more rounded then pattern 1 and it has a more rounded crown. Pattern 2 eagle is shown in the K.Barbarski article on Polish Paras in Military Illustrated, as a Polish Para badge. As far as I remember he doesn't elude anywhere in his articles that Paras used “slightly larger badges” . Can we say say that “British Pattern 2” badges are “Para badges” on the bases of his article? In my opinion NO there isn't enough evidence presented to make that statement just like there isn't enough evidence to say that “slightly larger” badges of the “ British Pattern 1” style are para badges.




GregK said “I do have a couple of different references that elude to that fact” . Could you pleas do me a favor and list these references Title, Author, page. So I can check this out for myself.

[Gary Jucha]

Variations on a theme

Here's some variants of the cap Eagles ...(The "Grey" airborne one is a repro).

Gary J.

[Gary Jucha]

This style is "Duff"

As a pointer, ... this style of Eagle with the wider Amazonian shield are "Duff" as far as I'm concerned ... (They normally have two vertically mounted wires on the back ..... and from what I believe were made or issued through post-war Veterans associations etc .... see e-bay link )

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...534928046&rd=1

Also ... as ever ... the beret in this auction I believe is a "soldier of Fortune" type .. modern re-enactor jobbie !!

Gary J.

[leigh kitchen]

Plastic economy Polish army badge of Josef LIpski, who fought at Arnhem.
as an airborne engineer in 1 Polish Para Bde.

136,500 of these were produced, all by Alfred Stanley & Sons Ltd, contract dates 29/1/44 - 18/6/44.

The same manufacturer made all the Polish airforce plastic economy badges, contract ran from 29/1/44, 12,000 made, for the "mens issue".
The womens issue in bright silver finish as opposed to the usual dull grey bare plastic was 6,850 from 21/7/45.

No info available re manufacturer/s etc re. the 12 Podolski Lancer Regiment (similar to the basic army eagle but with "12" in a "U" on the shield).
Info from Militaria Mag of some years ago.

[Billy B]

As a pointer, ... this style of Eagle with the wider Amazonian shield are "Duff" as far as I'm concerned ... (They normally have two vertically mounted wires on the back ..... and from what I believe were made or issued through post-war Veterans associations etc .... see e-bay link )

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...534928046&rd=1

Also ... as ever ... the beret in this auction I believe is a "soldier of Fortune" type .. modern re-enactor jobbie !!

Gary J.

The eagle in the auction is not a veterans eagle it is a modern Polish Military eagle wz.92

[vicjoy1945]

Hey Guys,

Here's a quick image of some WWII Polish Exile Army, Air Force, and Navy eagles...let me know if there are any in particular you would like to see in detail...there are very interesting types in this selection.

Thanks,

Vic

[vicjoy1945]

Here are the backs of those eagles...my photographic skills need honing unfortunately !!! Of couse, the two shield shaped badges are NOT beret eagles...they were just in this particular riker mount. I do have several bullion eagles as well and I have a number of eagles that are in groupings. These are just a selection of separate eagles I have in a riker mount.

Thanks,

Vic