Help re RNVR/RND Items

[tom2001]

Hi All,

I'm not a British militaria collector, and I just picked up an interesting father/son grouping, to an American soldier who was KIA in Korea, and to his father who served in the RNVR in WWI. The entire lot can be seen here:

http://www.purplehearts.net/soutargroup/soutar.htm

As you can see, the lot came with the father's BWM and Victory, along with a bunch of Royal Naval Division regimental cap badges. A few questions, if you don't mind:

1) Would the RNVR designation on the medals be proper for a member of a RND regiment, or are these just some souvenir items he picked up?

2) Do the cap badges look period, or are they modern knock-offs? All are marked JR GAUNT LONDON.

3) What is the round "Services Rendered" badge? It is stamped with the same number as on the box.

4) Any easy, and hopefully inexpensive way, to research FR Soutar?

Thanks in advance for the help!!!

[leigh kitchen]

RNVR could be okay for RND, but medals to personnel of the actual RND battalions would be named to the battalion.
The CZ prefix indicates Clyde Division, RNVR - men entering since 7/9/14.
The round badge was issued to those discharged from service due to wounds, illness etc - it showed the public why they were'nt in uniform. It's serial number indicates which man in went to.
I'm reluctant to judge badges from photos, but, although the two badges appear similar in metals & condition etc, I'd suspect the Anson of being restrike & the Hawke of being genuine. They're in new condition, & all appear unused - kept tucked away safely for decades, or recent strikings?
JR Gaunt as a manufacturerers mark normally arouses suspicions, but I'm unaware of any restrikes being churned out with the name plates on them.
National Archives, Imperial War Museum & National Maritime Museum have copies of the Navy Lists, indicating RNVR Division, rank, seniority etc.
The records of individuals are available at the National Archives.

[tom2001]

Hi leigh,

Thanks for the quick response to my queries. I guess my follow-up is with the National Archives at this point.

Regarding the badges, they all appear to be the same construction. They're significantly heavier than the typical restrike badges that I see by the boxload at local militaria shows.

The entire lot came out of the woodwork in Worchester, MA, the hometown of the Soutar family, so my initial guess is that they were either all restrikes, or all period, but I bow to the experts in the field.

Thanks again for the help,

Tom

RNVR could be okay for RND, but medals to personnel of the actual RND battalions would be named to the battalion.
The CZ prefix indicates Clyde Division, RNVR - men entering since 7/9/14.
The round badge was issued to those discharged from service due to wounds, illness etc - it showed the public why they were'nt in uniform. It's serial number indicates which man in went to.
I'm reluctant to judge badges from photos, but, although the two badges appear similar in metals & condition etc, I'd suspect the Anson of being restrike & the Hawke of being genuine. They're in new condition, & all appear unused - kept tucked away safely for decades, or recent strikings?
JR Gaunt as a manufacturerers mark normally arouses suspicions, but I'm unaware of any restrikes being churned out with the name plates on them.
National Archives, Imperial War Museum & National Maritime Museum have copies of the Navy Lists, indicating RNVR Division, rank, seniority etc.
The records of individuals are available at the National Archives.

[leigh kitchen]

Don't take my word on the badges, I find it very hard to tell from photos - I'm the guy that's been collecting the things for donkeys years & just bought a duff WWII plastic economy badge, so my judgement can be way off sometimes.
Those little name platses are normally a good sign - I've never come across a faked up badge with one of those yet, but it's hard to believe that they don't exist.

[Jim Maclean]

Restrikes of the Hawke badge that I have seen have got a different head to the original. This one looks OK to me, but as Leigh says it is difficult from pictures alone. Given the other stuff connected with the RND I'd give them a tentative thumbs up. I don't think shoulder titles are being faked much....yet. Also of interest is what appears to be a reinforcing bar in the back of the Anson coronet, perhaps someone has a known good badge with this feature.

Seeing a Silver War Badge with a matching box is something of a rarity, even more so when to the RN. I know that army SWBs can be ID'd to the recipient, but not too sure about RN. Either way you're going to need a researcher with the 'codes'. May be worthwhile just to check that it was issued to F.R. Soutar.

RN service records should be no problem as I believe all survived unlike the army.

I'm attaching a pic of a bad 'Hawke' Battalion badge showing the awful crest on the fakes.

[tom2001]

Just a follow-up on Frederick Robert Soutar. I just got copies of his service records today. Here are the highlights:

13 Nov 1915: entered service
May 1916: Attached to 2nd "Drake" Battalion, B Company
14 Dec 1916: invalided to England - septic finger
1 Apr 1917: returned to Drake Battalion
30 Dec 1917: wounded, GSW left leg (apparently at Welch Ridge, Cambrai)
23 Jan 1918: invalided