Battlefield Detectives

[Jack T.]

Has anyone seen "Battlefield Detectives" on the History chanel? I did a search of the old threads and didn't find any discussions of this TV show. I recorded 10 shows from last sunday. One on Custers Last Stand. Last night I saw the one on Gallopli. Saw one on Gettysberg.

The great thing is they use computer graphics to reconstruct the battlefields. The get experts to use metal detectors on these protected battlefields. They reconstruct sculls. I could watch these shows for hours. Still to see, Charge of the Light Brigade, The Somme, Antitem, Monmouth, can't wait.

[Terry K.]

Hi Jack,

They are great! I love them! I've seen Custer, Somme,and War of the Roses, and another.
Yours,

[Michael Page]

Jack, can you give a brief rundown on the Custer show?

There evidently was a book written about the excavation of the battlefield where every square inch was gone over with a fine tooth comb and IIRC the investigation revealed that there were far more rounds expended onto the 7th Cavalry's position than previously thought, and that the battle was probably over much quicker than previously thought. I would imagine that book's findings was the genesis for that episode.

Has anyone seen "Battlefield Detectives" on the History chanel? I did a search of the old threads and didn't find any discussions of this TV show. I recorded 10 shows from last sunday. One on Custers Last Stand. Last night I saw the one on Gallopli. Saw one on Gettysberg.

The great thing is they use computer graphics to reconstruct the battlefields. The get experts to use metal detectors on these protected battlefields. They reconstruct sculls. I could watch these shows for hours. Still to see, Charge of the Light Brigade, The Somme, Antitem, Monmouth, can't wait.

[ANDY BUTKUS]

That's a great show.. although i've only seen it a couple of times..

[Terry K.]

Hi All,

Michael,
The one I saw was done with the author of that book. Very interesting, but was what I some how knew from the reading I had done over the years. It was a running battle, lasting from Maj. Reno's beginning to the over running of the Custer Regts. lasting about 2 hours or so. They know that the last killed were not killed on the hill but in a gull about 100 meters away while trying to get away from the Custer position.
Terry

[JaimeH]

I was suprised that the investigators discovered how "out gunned" the troopers were. The Souix had Winchester repeating rifles while the troopers had the old single shot carbines, easily an 8 to 1 shot ratio, by a vastly superior force. If Custer had brought the Gatlings it might of had a different outcome.

There is another installment of the show that had a massacre of troopers in New Mexico about 1857 or so. The Apache's came down a hill with the sun at there backs and swept the troopers into a gully. By doing shell case marking evaluations, they could follow the path of each individual soldier. Cool stuff!

[Greg Sebring]

I was suprised that the investigators discovered how "out gunned" the troopers were. The Souix had Winchester repeating rifles while the troopers had the old single shot carbines, easily an 8 to 1 shot ratio, by a vastly superior force. If Custer had brought the Gatlings it might of had a different outcome.

There is another installment of the show that had a massacre of troopers in New Mexico about 1857 or so. The Apache's came down a hill with the sun at there backs and swept the troopers into a gully. By doing shell case marking evaluations, they could follow the path of each individual soldier. Cool stuff!

Custer is another area of interest I have had over the years. I can add a few comments..

The entire battlefield is several miles long. It is huge. I have been there and the area looks pretty much like it did in 1876 except "civilization" is creeping in with it's comercialism and casinos. In the early 1980's, there was a major fire that covered the battlefield and burnt off all of the vegatation and sagebrush. Back then, it was still possible to walk along the ground and find shell casings and bone fragments. The National Park Service with the assistance of archeologists and volunteers, did canvas a large area with metal detectors. They also were able to utilize computers and forensic labs to trace the use of various firearms from the cavalry and indians. They tied shell casings by the extractor marks and fired bullets to known guns used in the battle. In some cases a known cavalry rifle was linked from skirmish/volley positions (shells piled in spaced intervals),...to random shells..(cavalry position being overrun)...to known indian positions with the rifle now in indian hands being fired into known cavalry positions.
I have a VHS tape that documents the story. Since then, there have been several other metal detector searchs all strictly monitored. When an signal is located, a pin flag is placed and the detectorist moves on. Another team of recovery specialists comes along to expose the signal. Another team then photgraphs the item in it's position as found and the find is then plotted on a computer so it's exact location and position can be repeated.
The last search I am aware of was during the recent construction of the indian memorial. A large grave of horse bones was discovered and the area then searched.
The timeline of the battle will always be a topic for speculation. Even the indian accounts vary greatly. I had the privilige of becoming friends with Dr. Lawrence Frost (noted Custer author and family friend) and was able to actually hold in my hands many personal items of G.A.C. His collection of Custer memorbilia was estimated over one million $$$. I held his West Point text books, cavalry boots he was wearing when wounded at the battle of Culpepper, hand drawn maps and even a lock of George's hair.
I have a pretty good library on Custer and have come to one conclusion. No one will ever know exactly what happened and when. It all make fascinating reading.

Greg

Here is another great source of info on the topic. I am a member of the LBHA>
http://www.lbha.org/index.htm

[leigh kitchen]

There's a book of the same name, includes the Custer episode / chapter.

Good little book, turns up in batches at surplus stock book shops in Britain such as "Worx", that's where I got my copy, costs about £2.

[Jack T.]

The point I got from the Custer episode and am a little vague on the details is that Custer broke his final group into two groups. The group without him was overwhelmed and the few survivors fled in panic to Custer’s group on last stand Hill. The last stand hill group must have run out of ammunition and were mostly just gunned down. From last stand hill, a group fled down into a gully where they were killed. Many of the bodies were not recovered, which makes me think they must have been taken captive, God help them. They say there was no last stand on last stand hill.



Another surprising thing was, by analyzing bones they determined that the troopers were in such bad physical shape. Mostly from malnutrition, bad backs, bad teeth, which might have contributed into poor fighting.

Another thing they brought out was how badly the troopers were mutilitated by the Indians. I know it is very popular now to point out how bad the evil cavalry was to the Indians, but I think no one deserves the moral high ground in the Indian Wars or can say you were bad we were good. Scalpings, torture, and burning at stake was not a thing most white settlers or Cavalry practiced. It would probably be safe to say the torture thing was a Native American practice and who can blame the Cavalry from being pissed off. Sorry for the rant.

I watched the charge of the Light Brigade Last night. You get a really good mental picture of the Battlefield from the show. One cool thing they bring out is that the area was a closed military zone by the Soviets so was not very disturbed. They could not do much metal detectoring because the place was a huge battlefield in WW2. One of the metal detectorists held up a handful of shells and shrapnel to show. Down on the ground there were piles of spent shells.

Haven’t gone through too much of the one on the Somme. But one interesting tidbit was that the huge bombardment prior to the first charge over the top was that 1 in 3 shells didn’t explode hence large piles of unexploded shells.



I want a job on that show.

[Greg Sebring]

Jack,

There are so many theories.....was Custer killed very early,...was he killed at Medicine Tail Coulee....did he die atop Last Stand Hill? Nothing is definite. He had two gunshot entry wounds. One in the left temple (suicide or homicide?) and one in the left breast. His body was stipped of all clothing as were many. He was not mutilated or disfigured by the indians. The indians did not know who they were fighting until sometime (days) after the battle. The act of disfiguring your dead enemy guarantees when you meet this individual in the afterlife, he will be so "chopped up" he won't be a threat to you. The indians did not mutilate the enemy leader or anyone they thought was brave or put up a good fight. To do so was "bad medicine" and brought bad luck/shame to those who did. Most of G.A.C's. company commanders were able and competant to include two being family members, Tom (brother) and James Calhoun (brother-in-law). Benteen despised Custer and Reno's post Civil War reputation and alcoholism clouded his judgement.
The U.S. Army back then was mostly a ragtag outfit of foreigners, low lifes, criminals hiding from the law, former Confederates, and the officer corp. Army pay was very low and a lot of the rations the men drew were Civil War surplus...usually unfit to eat.

Greg

[Michael Page]

He was not mutilated or disfigured by the indians.

Not to quibble with an excellent thread, but Custer actually was mutilated although this was kept from his wife and not publicized

[McCulloh]

A great thread. I always thought The Little Bighorn was the perfect archaeological site-the digs that have been done since 1980 have really changed the way people think about the battle.

The old supposition was that the troopers were overwhelmed by mass charges and hand-to-hand combat.

Now we know that the right flank collapsed under intense gun and arrow fire-the skirmish lines were too far apart and then there was a sudden dramatic rout as the 3 companies ran for Custer Hill.

Then another gun fight and a final desperate "escape rush" down the coulee.
There are 2 great books on archaeology and the battle by Douglas Scott of the U. of Oaklahoma. They are a great read. Also Richard Scotts' Book is a good, readable summary.
Interesting tidbits of Big Horn trivia:
1. Thanks to gun forensics several Indian and trooper rifles have been identified. One can trace the course of the gun's movements about the battle field by the shells and bulets found. One of these, a serial #'d carbine, was sold at Julia's 4 years ago for $500,000.
2. Private digs outside the battlefield have resulted in the arrest and conviction of a well known militeria dealer for looting.
However, these digs also show that there was intense fighting at the rear of the ridge at some point-which ties in with Curley's account.

Great stuff.

[J.von Canon]

some reservations

This program is interesting but sometimes I think they are a little weak on historical known facts;particularly the episode concerning Picketts Charge at Gettysburg.
They were running with the idea that mass fire power stopped much of the Confederate attack short of the "copse of trees" that was the guide point for Pickett's Charge.Then they spent alot of time showing reenactors shooting muskets and the effects on targets(and,therefore men's flesh.)
What they NEGLECTED to mention(or consider)was that an entire Union Brigade(the Philadelphia Brigade)fled from the Union line as the surviving Confederates approached and broke into the Federal position in the immediate area of the "copse of trees."
I thought that was pretty weak rationale and an important ommission in their theory about that cause-effect that they claim to portray.

[crown.point]

There are 2 great books on archaeology and the battle by Douglas Scott of the U. of Oaklahoma. They are a great read.

In a former life, I was an archaeologist, and since military history has always fascinated me, I made an effort to read as much as I could about battlefield archaeology.
Doug Scott has carved himself a nice little niche in the world of archaeology. I own or have read many of the following books, and they're all pretty good.

Archaeological Perspectives on the Battle of Little Bighorn by Douglas Scott, Richard Fox, Jr. Melissa Connor and Dick Harmon
Archaeological Insights into the Custer Battle: An Assessment of the 1984 Field Season/With Map by Douglas Scott and Richard Fox
They Died With Custer: Soldiers' Bones from the Battle of the Little Bighorn by Douglas Scott, P. Willey and Melissa Connor
A look at Cedar Coulee and Sharpshooter Ridge: Archeological inventory of the Faron Iron property near Little Bighorn Battlefield National Monument by Douglas Scott
Archeological mapping of the Pitsch property: The valley fight segment of the Battle of the Little Bighorn, Montana : Rocky Mountain Region, Archeological project report by Douglas Scott
A good walk around the boundary: Archeological inventoru of the Dyck and other properties adjacent to Little Bighorn Battlefield National Monument by Douglas Scott

In addition to the Little Bighorn, Doug also does more general battlefield/military archaeology.
The Civil War battle at Monroe's Crossroads, Fort Bragg, North Carolina: A historical archeological perspective by Doug Scott
Archeological overview and assessment for Wilson's Creek National Battlefield, Greene and Christian counties, Missouri (SuDoc I 29.2:W 69/4) by Douglas Scott
Finding Sand Creek: History, Archeology, and the 1864 Massacre Site by Jerome Greene, Douglas Scott and Christine Whitacre
Magnetometer survey of selected portions of Big Hole National Battlefield, Montana by Douglas Scott
A sharp little affair: The archeology of the Big Hole Battlefield (Reprints in anthropology) by Douglas Scott
Archeological reconnaissance of Bear Paw Battlefield, Blaine County, Montana (Technical report / Midwest Archeological Center) by Douglas Scott
An assessment of the White, Pouliot, Johnson and Anderson-English relic collections from the Bear Paw battlefield, Blaine County, Montana
by Douglas Scott



Richard Fox, Jr. has also published a book, which is also very good.
Archaeology, History, and Custer's Last Battle: The Little Big Horn Reexamined by Richard Fox, Jr.

In addition, there are several scholarly articles in rather obscure professional journals, most notably the Journal of the Society for Historical Archaeology.
The website below has a wealth of information, and has some great photographs of WWI excavations. http://web.telia.com/~u86517080/Batt...ologENG_3.html

[McCulloh]

Cool! I read "Perspectives" many years ago while studying for the bar and it was the perfect "alternative" to mind-bending questions and factioids regarding Perpetuities.
I'd love to read the private property booklets.
I never knew they'd dug at Big Hole. When I was a kid I visited there and the guide showed me a buffalo gun cartridge he'd found near a trenchlet. The thought of a bullet that size hitting a man was mind boggling.
The Nez Pierce were great warriors.
Given your moniker, did you take part in the Crown Point dig?