Hellstorm: The Death Of Nazi Germany, 1944-1947 [Hardcover]

[Chris Boonzaier]

And it seems that there were few men of military age in the occupied Russian areas...

"
'When I was in Kharkov,' he said dreamily, clearly remembering happier times, 'everything in the old town was destroyed. It was a wonderful town with wonderful memories. All the people spoke a little German that they had learned in school.
'Also in Taganrog, wonderful cinemas and beautiful beach cafes. I went everywhere in the car. You saw nothing but women.'
His friend Fausst says; 'Oh, you bastard!'
Mueller went on; 'They were working to repair things, these deadly beautiful girls. We simply drove by them, tore them into the car, lay them down, and then chucked them out when we had finished. "


If I was a russian... and one of them was my sister... I would have been pretty angry...

[Chris Boonzaier]

3. That war of movement explanation does not work at all. If it is was valid, then how come e.g. the campaigns in Denmark, Holland, Belgium and Norway had minimal civilian losses? First, because these campaigns were run as "professional military campaigns" for material objects, not as political crusades.

Tell that to the Airforce...

"
Hartigs was speaking of the targets he liked to go for - unarmed civilians - when the microphones were switched on one day in January 1945.
'I used to shoot at everything,' he said laconically, 'certainly not just military targets. We liked to go for women pushing prams, often with children at their sides. It was a kind of sport really.....' "


Plenty of accounts of refugees trying to flee in 1940... if you bother to look for them....

[Chris Boonzaier]

The problem with any post like this is people with the "you are either for us or against us" mentality,

I dont see it like that. There were millions of good honest germans, people who suffered terribly through no fault of their own, some were brutally killed or raped by the allies.... I feel much sympathy for them.

But if ever there was a terrible evil that had to be exterminated it was the nazi Scourge... and many folks parents or Grandparents sacrificed many years of their lives to do it... some unfortunately the last years of their lives.

It was a cancer that had to be destroyed whatever the cost. And if the methods were not always kosher, and the soldiers sometimes murdered and raped, it is a pity... but in the end, it was worth it... and if you go up to a member of the "greatest generation" and say it was not... then ... well.. for me that is better left unsaid.

If anyone can tell me a "clean war" that was won without the suffering of innocent people I will by them an E-beer....

[pasoleati]

Clean war? The Falklands War for example. But as I am a teetotaler, no thanks for the beer offer.:-)

As for those German pilot comments. I don't know how many US pilot accounts you have read, but those kind of incidents are regular stuff in US personal accounts, though usually written a bit more indirect style.

As for the "nazi Scourge", those with personal experience with Stalinism would probably disagree. What is more, one of the leading British propagandists, Lord Vansittart, fumed to huis colleagues that they should not "make the mistake of believing to fight the Nazis, the enemy is the Germanic nation". Plus, as e.g. Thomas Fleming has amply demonstrated, FDR's main enemy was not the NS ideology, it was the very people and culture of Germany: FDR pathologically hated anything German and that hate was there long before anyone had heard about Hitler.

[PANZER332]

The problem with any post like this is people with the "you are either for us or against us" mentality,

I dont see it like that. There were millions of good honest germans, people who suffered terribly through no fault of their own, some were brutally killed or raped by the allies.... I feel much sympathy for them.

But if ever there was a terrible evil that had to be exterminated it was the nazi Scourge... and many folks parents or Grandparents sacrificed many years of their lives to do it... some unfortunately the last years of their lives.

It was a cancer that had to be destroyed whatever the cost. And if the methods were not always kosher, and the soldiers sometimes murdered and raped, it is a pity... but in the end, it was worth it... and if you go up to a member of the "greatest generation" and say it was not... then ... well.. for me that is better left unsaid.

If anyone can tell me a "clean war" that was won without the suffering of innocent people I will by them an E-beer....

Yes I know, we destroy the evil Nazi third reich regime and the antichrist of adolf hitler, and we give europe communism for over 40 years. wow ...I'm impressed!!! way to go allies ..HOO-AH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Chris Boonzaier]

Yes I know, we destroy the evil Nazi third reich regime and the antichrist of adolf hitler, and we give europe communism for over 40 years. wow ...I'm impressed!!! way to go allies ..HOO-AH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I vote that as the most ridiculous and ill informed quote of the thread

I am sure 40 years of Nazi rule after WW2 would have been a welcome relief. Why dont you go pee on the allied graves in Normandy while you are at it, they obviously died messing up the world...

[Chris Boonzaier]

As for the "nazi Scourge", those with personal experience with Stalinism would probably disagree..

Hmmm... here is my question..... what huge massacers, in tens or hundreds of thousands took place in Europe, or even Russia after 1945?

What massacers would have taken place if in 1945 People had said "OK Adolph, you win.... do whatever you like to Jews, Gypsies, Spastics, Fags, Social democrats, anyone who does not like nazism, people listening to US Radio, Russians and Poles living where you want German lebensraum, etc. etc. etc...."

Or do you think with a Nazi victory he would have mellowed and said "we must all now live together" ? A big "kumbaya" for all who had been against the Nazis?

I mena REALLY, please... tell me how you think it would have worked?

[pasoleati]

Chris, the answer is very easy, if one cares to study how the USSR and the 3rd Reich carried out things before the war, i.e. peace time. Large scale killing took place in the USSR almost every year until the war, whereas the mass killings under the 3rd Reich didn't take place until war. As Polish historian Bogdan Musial has stated, the Soviet behaviour during the withdrawal from Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, Baltic had a significant impact on the mindset of Hitler. In his mind that Soviet behaviour signified that he was now facing an enemy that was willing to employ utter horror as a weapon.

To Hitler's idealist logic the only option was even greater horror which proved to be a fatal mistake as the Soviet regime had had a long time to "thicken the skin" of their people through Soviet terror. Never forget that it was Lenin himself who urged that the revolution will fail without unlimited terror.

Now, how would this translate to a post-1945 victorious 3rd Reich? Too many people forget that the 3rd Reich was a much more open society than the Soviet Union ever was until Gorbachev. Far more people had e.g. access to radios than Soviet citizens had under Stalin. The 3rd Reich proper was also much more densely populated, thus keeping things secret was a much more difficult issue.

In other words, in peace time conditions it would have been very unlikely in my opinion that e.g. the Final solution would have kept going on, at least in any large scale. Plus what has to be taken into account is that what would the borders of the 3rd Reich been in your scenario?

One what if scenario must also be examined: what if the France and Britain had not initiated war against Germany? Since to you the key seems to lie with who starts what, it should be remembered that it was Britain and France who expanded a minor local conflict to a major war.

Even more significant what if: what if Pilsudski, a realistic man with a good grasp of Staatsräson, had been alive and in power in 1939 instead of Colonel Beck who among other Poles fantasized how Polish cavalry will simply storm Berlin. Pilsudski would have certainly realized that Danzig rightfully belongs to Germany and that in the perilous geographic location Poland was it would not afford to gamble against 2 major neighbouring countries. As one Finnish military author put it, "the behaviour of Poland was such that the current superpower would not tolerate such from its neighbour for one second."

[Chris Boonzaier]

Now, how would this translate to a post-1945 victorious 3rd Reich? Too many people forget that the 3rd Reich was a much more open society than the Soviet Union ever was until Gorbachev. Far more people had e.g. access to radios than Soviet citizens had under Stalin."

Thats just plain wrong. They had radios that could play approved channels. my Wifes great uncle was a Richter on the infamous Volksgericht in Saxony. He always felt guilty because he had to pass the harshest sentences on people who were caught listening to stations like the BBC... because he did it himself.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Chris, the answer is very easy, if one cares to study how the USSR and the 3rd Reich carried out things before the war, i.e. peace time.

Relevant is... what happened after the war, not before...

[Chris Boonzaier]

In other words, in peace time conditions it would have been very unlikely in my opinion that e.g. the Final solution would have kept going on, at least in any large scale. "

Oh, that would have been a relief to the Jews and Gypsies and half a dozen other target groups.... "Dont worry folks, a guy in Finnland thinks you are going to be safe..."

[Chris Boonzaier]

Never forget that it was Lenin himself who urged that the revolution will fail without unlimited terror.

So where was the absolute terror after 1945?

[Chris Boonzaier]

One what if scenario must also be examined: what if the France and Britain had not initiated war against Germany? Since to you the key seems to lie with who starts what, it should be remembered that it was Britain and France who expanded a minor local conflict to a major war.

Sorry, forgot, it was allies fault.... pss on their graves, the bastids!

[Chris Boonzaier]

Now, how would this translate to a post-1945 victorious 3rd Reich?

Is your bottom line that the world would be better off if nazi germany had won?

[PANZER332]

Is your bottom line that the world would be better off if nazi germany had won?

Chris, are you a lefty or a communist lover ?????