Berghof

[colt45s]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...zi-shrine.html

[GEBIRGS-JAGER]

Thanks for the link. Does Jeff Walden care to comment, Brian

[JG 51]

Interesting link. Eventhough I understand their point it hurts to see the bavarian goverment demolishing historical buildings, like bunkers etc. Sure a couple of neo-nazis are pilgrim to the places, but to most of us it is an important memory of a very dark age.

[MLW]

Having been stationed on, or near, several Third Reich buildings during my army days in Germany, I still fail to see the historical value of them. Most of are not historically significant in the long view of history and should be destroyed. Furthermore, why the US Army did not destroy the IG Farben building in Frankfurt and the various NSDAP sites in Nuremburg is beyond me.

[pasoleati]

Who has the right to define what is of historical value and what is not? How many years old has the building etc to be before it becomes of historical value? It it downright intellectual and historical dishonesty to apply differentstandards to the 3rd Reich era. Do we support demolishing e.g. Roman era artefacts because for great many contemporaries the Roman empire was the epitomisation of murder, torture and destruction? Or is the culpability of a regime determined by the race/religion/culture of its victims? I.e. are some victims simply more equal than others? If so, why? Wide pleading eyes and tear shedding VAAAIII?

[Jon Fish]

"You can hardly find a mason in the region who isn't storing columns and stone blocks from Obersalzberg."

[MLW]

We all get to judge, and my belief is that those sites should be bulldozed. Very little good has come from sparing these Third Reich buildings and sites from destruction.

[pasoleati]

Have those buildings/sites attacked you? Did you fear that a rock might might suddenly jump up on its own and smash into your skull? I don´t really understand such irrational fear of inanimate things...If your logic is followed to the end, then e.g. all statues devoted to a certain Columbus
should be bulldozed as they represent a man who is indirectly responsible for a genocide most complete.

[MLW]

You could be missing my point. By and large the buildings and other sites, as interesting as they may be, are not historically significant in of themselves. Most are not great architecture and culturally they represent something that we should not tolerate. To bemoan their loss is to memorialize them and make the objects something more than they really are. Of course, that is just my opinion, the one's who get to decide now are the German people. It is their country and they are free to do what ever they want with them. On a side note, I am not sure how the Roman Empire (a significant and often positive cultural influence on Western Civilization) or Christopher Columbus (a single person - maybe you should check the definition of genocide) can be compared to the Third Reich, which made no positive contribution to civilization and was much larger than one person. Just a thought.

[pasoleati]

How can an "empire" lasting mere 12 years be expected to produce something "positive"? And following your logic again, does a genocide become more acceptable if it is committed by the "right" people? Would the view on Roman Empire´s "positive cultural influence" be viewed a bit more critically if its victims were running several large media conglomerates and great many universities would have specific studies on e.g. "genocide of Celts" and anyone doubting the expanse of the previous one would be subject to anything from public wrath to prison sentence?

And BTW, you wrote "...culturally represent something we should not tolerate." Just the attitude the Talebans must have had when they blew up the Buddhist monument.

[bobcam1]

....... the Third Reich, which made no positive contribution to civilization and was much larger than one person. Just a thought.

.....the Autobahn and the German Railway system.....

[mr bridger]

.....the Autobahn and the German Railway system.....

And thats why Russia and the USA took onboard German scientists etc after the war.
Neccesity is the mother of invention as they say and the Germans knew how to facilitate its needs.

[MLW]

The Third Reich certainly produced something negative in 12 years, so why is it so far fetched to expect it could have produced something positive in the same time frame had it chosen to do so?

At the end of time, the Roman Empire for all its transgressions will certainly fair much better than the Third Reich. Can anyone think of a positive contribution the Third Reich made or will make to human civilization? Something perhaps that generations several hundred years from will see as a positive contribution? The answer is probably no. Most people who have studied European history can name a few lasting, positive cultural contributions made the Romans. Language - Latin - is one that comes to mind. Many European languages are strongly rooted in Latin and have acquired much of their vocabulary from it.

[jiipee76]

You could be missing my point. By and large the buildings and other sites, as interesting as they may be, are not historically significant in of themselves. Most are not great architecture and culturally they represent something that we should not tolerate. To bemoan their loss is to memorialize them and make the objects something more than they really are. Of course, that is just my opinion, the one's who get to decide now are the German people. It is their country and they are free to do what ever they want with them. On a side note, I am not sure how the Roman Empire (a significant and often positive cultural influence on Western Civilization) or Christopher Columbus (a single person - maybe you should check the definition of genocide) can be compared to the Third Reich, which made no positive contribution to civilization and was much larger than one person. Just a thought.

Third reich buildings and whole era is part of german history.And the way how germans try to forget/ban/destroy it only makes its memory stronger in mind of people(atleast outside Germany).Its good that Germans did build these buildings/fortifications allaround Europe so they cannot destroy them all.

Roman Empire was the culture which 3rd reich very much imitated.Only difference for Romans was the level of technology which did not allow same scale murdering /war actions.Same world conquering plans was in mind of Roman leaders than Hitler had.And small example: Romans used slaves to build their huge monuments,so why they are not destroyed nowdays?

Finnish people see wartime germans littlebit different way than most of the other europeans/rest of the world.We did receive great amount of help from Germany in wartime and we were also ONLY country in whole europe who took part in war and were not conquered.Many countries in europe went from 3rd reich control to many decades of communism which ruined these countries economics/cultures totally.

[colt45s]

we went to Dachau.. would it be better to travel that distance just to see a picture of it.. because you tore it down?