Has anyone read any of the 3 volume series Gestapo Chief : The 1948 Interrogation of Heinrich Muller by Gregory Douglas? If you have, what is your opinion on the series?
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I never read them, but I heard they are a hoax. -
I haven´t read them either, but I have heard that if they are forgeries, they are done by very knowledgeable people. One review commented that if e.g. the excerpted phone taps from conversations between Winnie the Pooh and FDR are true, there is not much left about these men´s "greatness"...Comment
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A good friend gifted me most of these volumes many years ago and I have read them. I am not convinced either if they are real or a partial or even total hoax.
I have read all of the critical arguments that I can find that take the position that they are complete fabrications and these arguments seem very weak and unconvincing too me. At this point I am on the fence and open minded.
There are huge agendas at stake on both sides of the pro and con of these books being authenic.
I know that 15 years ago many "scholars" came out with earth shattering critiques that "Forgotten Soldier" was a fabrication as well. I think that it is pretty well proven now that it is actually the genuine deal.Comment
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I think the books are complete fakes.
#1) The author's credibility is dubious to begin with. Gregory Douglas aka Peter Birch, Peter Stahl, Freiherr Mollendorf, Sam Bush apparently has a history of producing forged/questionable documents.
#2) I've seen two different versions of the "transport orders" for Hitler's flight to Spain; one with and one without the lightening bolt SS runes. Additionally, I don't believe Hitler would need any type of written orders for travel and if the flight really did take place one would think that Muller would be professionally competent enough not to leave written evidence.
#3) Douglas refuses to let anyone examine the documents (which is probably the biggest 'tell').
#4) If the book were true you'd have to believe that Hilter and entourage landed in Spain, were either never recognized or no one ever talked about it.
#5) If the book were true you'd have to believe that Gunsche, Linge, Kempa, and Axman were all lying about burning the bodies.
Taken as a work of fiction the books are well written and it's obvious the author has a very good grasp of history. After all, it does take a pretty bright guy to weave a work of fiction around the known facts.Comment
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For me the problem is saying that because some parts of the work may be false, ( the Hitler/Spain deal is real tough for me swallow as well.....regardless of the documentation quality) I don't think that can condem everything else in the books out of hand.
As far as I'm concerned if only the premise that Muller worked in the U.S. for the goverment after the war or even met with OSS agents after May 45 in Switzerland (or anywhere else)was able to be proven or disproven that would seal the deal either way on the book(s).
If the story of Muller's survivial past May of 45 and his cooperation with western intelligence is a complete fabrication I have to say that given the details provided in the book, this story should be able to be shot full of a lot more holes than I have yet seen made against it.Comment
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I should add that I think that there are actually four volumns to the book.
I also don't know for sure what real attempts to study Douglas's source documents have been made and by who. Those kind of allegations (not by PD Sergeant but from the critics in print that I have read) have to be checked out...as critics can lie as well as those who break the story to begin with.
I do know that for the last 10 or so years I have been wanting and waiting for someone to either conclusivly de-bunk these books or find evidence that would support. At this point I have been unable to find either.Comment
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Mueller and The Gestapo
Hello,
I have all the books myself, I purchased them from a local used bookshop for $40 (for all 4 volumes) two years ago.
I have read them and to me they are a total hoax. IMHO, it is like reading a novel; some parts were entertaining, but it is not history-a majority of it is pure fantasy. To me these books should be placed along with the infamous Hitler diaries from 1982.
Regards,
JodyLast edited by Jody; 08-31-2008, 07:10 PM.Comment
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I think that if there was the slightest shred of corroborated evidence showing that Müller worked for the CIC, CIA or some other agency of the USG, the Holocaust people would have sent up an earth-shattering hew and cry by now that would have been heard by one and all.
The conventual wisdom is that Müller either died while escaping Berlin or fell into Soviet hands, was whisked off to Moscow and disappeared into the clutches of the NKVD never to be seen again.
I don't think the claims and theories espoused by Mr. Douglas (or whatever his name is) have much weight in the world of serious scholarship.Comment
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I guess I examined this as a cop. Credibility counts (just ask Hugh Trevor-Roper), look at the evidence, do the witness/suspect statements make sense.
You don't have to be an historian or professional researcher to see that he has presented two versions of the same document (the "Special Fuehrer journey to Barcelona') one in the Spring 1990 Military Advisor & the same document in the book where he corrected his mistake with the SS character format. Not only do we have a problem with the document itself, but the documents reason for existing doesn't make sense; i.e. Hitler wouldn't need travel orders.
I agree with you that a revelation that Muller worked for either the British or American counterintelligence services would be a hell of an interesting revelation. If 'Douglas' has evidence that such is the case: (1) why refuse examination of the documents (2) why lie about other 'facts' in the book. Taken in the totality of the circumstances the books appear to be in the same class as the Hitler Diaries.
You're right, there are four volumes in the series: vol. 1-3 and Muller's purported diary (which I haven't read). Out of curiosity do you think there may parts of the book that are true, and if so, what are they?Comment
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Hello,
What I wonder is: why did Roger Bender publish these? Did he see the actual documents/micro film files?
His books are known for good research and reliable authors who now their field...
He isn't the publisher who just wants to print a good story (read novelle)...Last edited by Dmv; 07-22-2009, 06:15 AM.Comment
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That was my question as well. The author has a long list of aliases and is well known for producing forged documents. Bender may or may not have known this at the time of publication. Regardless of his knowledge of the author's background, one would think that Bender would be grounded enough in history to see this series for what it is. I was extremely disappointed in Bender for publishing this series.Comment
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...and THAT is the million dollar question folks!
Roger is no fool and quite knowledgable in his own right. So, I have always wondered, why is he hooked up with a man whom I have known to be on the wrong side of the truth for 20 years?
Why go to the bother of publishing these absurd Muller books, wasting money on printing costs and then having large numbers wasting space in a warehouse?
Hmmmmmmmm..........
By the way, the books have influenced a number of lesser educated and gullable folks-including a few Holocaust deniers. However, there's a good detective series about Muller that Rick L. reccommended to me a while back. Some suspect "The Good german" was derived from this earlier (and less commercially successful) book.
About 5 years ago there was as thorough a debunking of Douglas and his books as there could be on Amazon. I don't know if the reviews are still extant, but there was scathing and detailed prose written there and a lot of details.Comment
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For whatever it may be worth, I had an opportunity to speak with David Irving when he visited near to where I live some years ago. Among the topics I asked Mr. Irving was his opinion concerning the authenticity of these 'diaries' and, without a moment's hesitation, Irving averred that they were the work of Peter Stahl.
David Irving is many things to many people, but his knowledge is acknowledged by many to be encyclopaedic on things Third Reich. I know his interpretation of Hitler's involvement in the destruction of European Jews is certainly contentious and is not the subject of this post.
******Please don't turn this thread into an Irving thread.******
If these were credible diaries with assertions that Mueller was an OSS or CIA operative, I guarantee, given the blog/conspiratorial world we're currently immersed in, that the US Government would have been awash in accusations promulgated by interest groups associated with Holocaust Studies, Nazi Hunters, the Press as well as the US Dept of Justice Nazi Criminal Prosecutors Office.
RamonComment
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I purchased the first 3 volumes of these books when they were initially published (they have since been sold by myself on e-bay, where I have to say they sold very well indeed!) and I remember thinking right from the opening chapters of vol 1, that everything seemed so 'perfect'.
The content is highly sensitive, especially the Hitler fleeing to Spain episode and yet in wider circles this seemed to of been almost exclusively overlooked
Surely, the world press would have an interest in these claims, even if only to expose them as false?
I would of liked to of seen someone such as David Irving stand up and publically give his verdict at the time of publication. I think this would of been very interesting indeed
Regards Richard.Always looking for Luftwaffe Kampfflieger related document groups. In particular anything to Kampfgeschwader 2.Comment
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