Saving Private Ryan & chin straps

[gary42-43]

What is it with chin straps in SPR?
One of the early scenes of the film, we're in the landing craft with the Rangers, about to assault the beaches. The camera pans around & we're getting a good look around & absolutely no one is using their chin strap. I'd've thought the blokes face a big enough challenge getting onto the beach without having to use one hand to keep their helmets from falling off.

Gary

[Jean-Loup]

If you look at period photos of GI's, they are very rarely using their chin straps. Infact, ironicaly, it seems that they were used most often during ceremonies.
I have been told, though I dont know how true it is, that the early chinstrap system was actualy dangerous in case of a nearby explosion as it could damaged the wearers neck when the helmet was violently blown backwards. Because of this soldiers were told not to wear their chinstraps untill a new model of chinstrap hook was created.

JL

[pete]

.

Thats an urban myth (one of the many combat myths) that permeated units over the years like rumours and myths do, today you dont see unbuttoned helmet straps anywhere and the same design of shells impact and wound soldiers. I would dare say also that some soldiers just wated an excuse not to button their helmet for the cool factor of a john wayne style helmet and perpetuated the myth too. Its been a while since soldiers found themselves in close combat conditions again like ww2, korea, vietnam. Just think about the forces at work, If youre that close to a concussion you got alot more to worry about then your helmet breaking your neck with the frag, blast, overpressure effect. Also an explosions forces take the easiest route out which is not up and under a helmet but around any blocking object, hece V shaped hulls on anti mine vehicles. The main reason for people unbuttoning helmets straps, or not wearing helmets for some kinds of operations was/is because:

1-You will probabaly come into contact with enemy forces hand to hand. If your helmet is fastened you cannot get it off quickly to throw it, or use the helmet for a head/face smash on an opponent, or, the enemy if getting a hold of your helmet immediatly controls your body and can twist and break your neck.

2-If you or an enemy gets behind someone wearing a fastened helmet as in say taking out a sentry type deal it only takes a grasp on the front of the rim, knee to the back and you can break that opponents neck. If an opponent tries that one and its unfastened you can see how it will come back on them and they will loose suprise and the initiative.

3-Off topic but Helmet is some times not worn as its cumbursome for recce patrols, can fall off easily and make alot of noise, especially the old style m1 in which two parts often seperated and fell out at times if not put together firm.




Best,

Pete

[Jean-Loup]

I believe it is not an urban myth at all. What I am unsure about is wether what was considered dangerous was the blast created by explosions, or the possibility of the helmet getting stuck somewhere, or an enemy soldier pulling the helmet back to strangle the wearer.

Proof that it is not a myth is the fact that the US army promptly created a new type of chinstrap (ball and clevis) during WW2, that would give way after a certain weight was put on it. You will notice that modern chinstraps are also made to detach easily.

Further proof (where the risk is clearly an nearby explosion, nothing else, but with a helmet with large visor in front) is this web page for example, that conducts research about helmets, and does not spread urban legends: http://www.mech.uwa.edu.au/jpt/demin...t-support.html

A citation:
"Deminers no longer use the helmet chin strap since the visors are fastened down (an adjustment made following some deminers being injured as a result of keeping their visors half or fully up). The chin strap might cause a broken neck if a blast wave catches the visor and pushes the helmet off the head.
Deminers can, therefore, easily lose their helmet which would be a great inconvenience if the helmet falls off on, say, a steep mountain path. Potentially the helmet may roll down into a minefield.
The strap consists of a length of elastic "bungee" cord secured to the deminers belt in the middle of the back. It can also be secured to the helmet support harness. With suitable adjustment, it can also help prevent the helmet falling off the deminer's head forwards (perhaps onto a mine) during prodding."


JL

[pete]

.

This is like the constant digging threads...

Have at it, ask one of the main men, heres his pages
http://www.nolandmines.com/mineblastwebpage.htm
http://www.nolandmines.com/indexgene...sandarmour.htm


Best,

Pete

[Jean-Loup]

Hey Pete

You will note they did not say that they use no chinstrap, they say they use an elastic chinstrap on their demining helmet. And I am sure those guys work with plenty of miners that spend time in the field, and not not working purely on their lab tests.

Anyways, here are a few facts, anybody can draw their own conclusion:
-collectors say that the chintraps presented a risk when there were explosions.
-the US army modified its issue chinstrap, on a helmet model that was brand new (there must have been a reason for that).
-a solid chinstrap clearly does present real risks from other causes then explosions (strangling, etc).
-People doing research for designing demining helmets clearly say that in demining, a solid chinstrap can be dangerous.

If you connect the dots, it seems that the collector story is more then a myth.
Having said this, I admit that being worried about neck wounds caused by an explosion and chinstrap sounds very far fetched to me... but if they changed their chinstrap in 1943 or 44, and if researchers specialised in the field say it is a real risk... then what is my opinion worth? Nothing! So I will trust what they say on that demining research site, on on other sites that I remember having looked at in the past.

JL

[Gunbunny]

2-If you or an enemy gets behind someone wearing a fastened helmet as in say taking out a sentry type deal it only takes a grasp on the front of the rim, knee to the back and you can break that opponents neck. If an opponent tries that one and its unfastened you can see how it will come back on them and they will loose suprise and the initiative.

I was in the U.S. Army from 1968 to 1970 and we were told in basic training that the reason for the ball and clevis was because of the above scenario. Nothing was mentioned about broken necks from concussion.

[pete]

.

JL you would be suprised what the real demining world is like......along with the power of a rumour in an army. Like i said I know of some rumours which are older then time but still going around and they reach everybody even the top Military designers I bet.

Refer to the GCIHD site http://www.gichd.org/, nolandmines.com (remember he tests and designs gear too), with the database of accidents-which include the medical reports, mineaction.org, IMAS standards for PPE, and maybe JMU.edu Mines section. Included is a link showing a blast with the one peice visors http://www.nolandmines.com/mineblastwebpage.htm



Best,

Pete

[Gary Jucha]

Thread

Check this thread out about the chin strap wearing ..

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ght=chin+strap

Gary J.

[pete]

.

Gary i dont buy that thread or the photo of the deminer photo of a deminer doing what are amounting to "bad drills" to me mate. Of course his visors lifted off if hes leaning over a blast with a ****ty visor design and no anti blast flap on his PPE. Im not going to get into the technicalities like i did before on some threads because honestly im talking to people who havent Demined or have this or an EOD background. Im with 101 vet, good training, good equipment, and common sense along with the theory of an explosion combined with the knowns of ordnance designs, effects of and accident statistics.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Helmet

During World War II and later, many soldiers wore the webbing chinstraps unfastened or looped around the back of the helmet and clipped together. This practice arose for two reasons: First, because hand-to-hand combat was anticipated, and an enemy could be expected to attack from behind, reach over the helmet, grab its visor, and pull. If the chinstrap were worn, the head would be snapped back, causing the victim to lose balance, and leave the throat and stomach exposed to a knife thrust. Secondly, many men incorrectly believed that a nearby exploding bomb or artillery shell could cause the chinstrap to snap their neck when the helmet was caught in its concussive force, although a replacement buckle, the T-1 pressure-release buckle, was manufactured that allowed the chinstrap to release automatically should this occur. In place of the chinstrap, the nape strap inside the liner was counted on to provide sufficient contact to keep the helmet from easily falling off the wearer's head.



Best,

Pete

[Gary Jucha]

It

Pete,
It was just a question that had bugged me after watching so many WW2 "hollywood" films ..
I had no prior knowledge of what the drill was for wearing the M1 ... hence my original question ..

Cheers

Gary J.

Gary i dont buy that thread or the photo of the deminer photo of a deminer doing what are amounting to "bad drills" to me mate. Of course his visors lifted off if hes leaning over a blast with a ****ty visor design and no anti blast flap on his PPE. Im not going to get into the technicalities like i did before on some threads because honestly im talking to people who havent Demined or have this or an EOD background. Im with 101 vet, good training, good equipment, and common sense along with the theory of an explosion combined with the knowns of ordnance designs, effects of and accident statistics.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Helmet

During World War II and later, many soldiers wore the webbing chinstraps unfastened or looped around the back of the helmet and clipped together. This practice arose for two reasons: First, because hand-to-hand combat was anticipated, and an enemy could be expected to attack from behind, reach over the helmet, grab its visor, and pull. If the chinstrap were worn, the head would be snapped back, causing the victim to lose balance, and leave the throat and stomach exposed to a knife thrust. Secondly, many men incorrectly believed that a nearby exploding bomb or artillery shell could cause the chinstrap to snap their neck when the helmet was caught in its concussive force, although a replacement buckle, the T-1 pressure-release buckle, was manufactured that allowed the chinstrap to release automatically should this occur. In place of the chinstrap, the nape strap inside the liner was counted on to provide sufficient contact to keep the helmet from easily falling off the wearer's head.



Best,

Pete

[pete]

.

No worries mate, I am talking about the drill in Demining. The technics of a demining blast wearing demining equipment, current technology/research/statistics/safety and worksite health and safety practices and obervations and the M1 topic including the wartime research are two different birds. The database of demining accidents and those websites should be able to point towards any tests and statistics to confirm the effects of the chinstrap.

If it does break a neck every time, we in the real world would know about that and IMAS would state somthing about it, I have never heard that and all the top helmets have a very good chinstrap. It is something I would like to know so i can further say and reinforcing a cervical collar and spine board -which i would do anyway because of the possibilities of neck and head injuries from such a close blast and the energy from the detonation even if the visor survives and was tucked under the blast flap.


Best,

Pete

[Adrian]

I don't know how true this is and I only heard of this theory recently, can't remember where exactly but I'm sure it was in a Normandy museum I visited this year and account of the landings as told by a soldier going ashore. It seemed to imply that the troops going ashore from landing craft were told to keep their helmets loose in case they had to bail over the side of the landing craft or had to disembark in deeper water.
The reason being was the fear of the helmet filling up and pulling the head under water and drowning you. The weight of the helmet was also a factor. I guess that if you are struggling with weapons, equipment, clothing etc, the last thing you need is a lump of metal attached to your head trying to drag you down and if your head was starting to go under, what with struggling with everything else, would you have the strength in you neck to be able to continuously keep holding your head above water or keep emptying it? Remember, you wouldn't have the luxury of mother earth under you to gain purchase on and use your strength, you would be fairly helpless in the arms of the sea.
Whether or not it was likely to happen I don't know but I can understand the reasoning behind it and the reluctance on behalf of the troops to find out, hence the unfastened helmets.

[Jean-Loup]

"JL you would be suprised what the real demining world is like......along with the power of a rumour in an army. Like i said I know of some rumours which are older then time but still going around and they reach everybody even the top Military designers I bet."

You are right Peter, in fact it entirely possible they changed their design in 1944 based on false info/a myth that was going around with soldiers and medical staff. I read an interesting article recently about how the designing of some major weapons (M-16, etc) did not take into account some basic laws of physics, and was taking into accound a certain number of those myths that go around ammongst gun freaks.
Like I said, I find the story of the snaped vertebra hard to believe myself. Lets say I will keep an open mind about it though since people who should be knowing what they are talking about also take this myth (if it is one) into account.
I would like to see the original 1943 documents that prompted the army to change their design though.

JL

[pete]

.

According to the boffins there is a possibility for a soldier who is in a foxhole with a fastened helmet and only face and helmet exposed, according to my freind who is on the high level in research who says this may result in a neck injury because the head and helmet take the brunt of the blast wave and the helmet if fastened tight will restrict the blast wave. Now on another note, what about a soldier flat as a pancake on the ground underfire who can only slightly look up? Any blast is going to come at him sort of like a trench with only head exposed as well IMO.

Since the helmet and head restricts the force of the explosion: frag, blast wave over pressure and low pressure it would possibly give a neck injury in those two cases to a certain extent variable based. Large ordance will send a frag effect and shockwave so great not only will there be head and neck injuries but massive internal hemoraging and all other sorts of injuries if exposed to a complete body, let alone a head only.

Possibly this trench example may have been where this came from but it is most likely irrelevant for any other situation. Also remember a blast from a large item like a bomb or shell is quite more substancial- you have alot more to worry about then a neck injury due to the enourmous forces at work and the design of the munition and its effects.

Quite interesting!


Dear Pete,

..............ammended and enhanced from author see post number 18