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**Larry deZeng** · 02-28-2008, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by pasoleati View Post

Larry, at least in the Finnish edition he says that he decided to write the Berlin book because he felt that "too many young Germans" have something positive to say about the 3rd Reich. If that is not a political agenda, which is???
Furthermore, his writing style is not what one expects from a PROFESSIONAL MILITARY OFFICER (=objective, dispassionate analysis from military PoV). He sounds like a SIPRI scriber.

There is no such statement or anything even approaching it in my edition:

Beevor, Antony. The Fall of Berlin 1945. New York: Penguin Books, 2002. ISBN: 1 14 20.0280 1. Pb. 490p. Illus. Maps. Glossary. Source notes. Bibliography. Index.

In fact, if he dwells on anything it's the wanton raping and killing of German civilians by the Red Army. He covers account after account, town after town, especially in Silesia. If he was trying to make an overt attempt to propagandize present-day wayward German youth on the evils of Nazism, then he would have dwelled on Nazi crimes in Russia, I would think. I am beginning to suspect that we are talking about two different books here.

--Larry

**pasoleati** · 02-28-2008, 01:22 PM

Larry, I will check the book hopefully tomorrow and report back then

**gary42-43** · 02-28-2008, 02:47 PM

Berlin

Battlefield Berlin. Siege, surrender & Occupation, 1945 by
Peter Slowe & Richard Woods ISBN 0-7090-3293-5
Personal accounts from various individuals with quite a few maps. Routes taken' all that kind of thing. I love maps! Especially maps with arrows on showing breakouts!

**Anthony N** · 02-28-2008, 03:35 PM

Originally posted by siegeswimpel View Post

Battlefield Berlin. Siege, surrender & Occupation, 1945 by
Peter Slowe & Richard Woods ISBN 0-7090-3293-5
Personal accounts from various individuals with quite a few maps. Routes taken' all that kind of thing. I love maps! Especially maps with arrows on showing breakouts!

I must admit to being one sad git because i get so excited when it comes to breakouts, i start reading faster & faster.
My favourite so far is the mass Berlin breakout, but the one that really is incredible is Erich Vielwerth's breakout in Russia (Infantry Aces by Franz Kurowski). Despite being wounded in the leg by shrapnel he set off on foot. It took him over 50 days & he covered over 800 Kilometers.
When he finally crawled to within speaking distance of the German lines & called to them to let them know he was German they replied that anyone could say that & that they needed proof?
He told them "If you want proof, you can kiss my ass free of charge"

Ant.

**Jonathan M** · 02-28-2008, 04:35 PM

Ant

'In Deadly Combat' by Biderman has just arrived. Bought it after reading your thread on it. Also just received Tigers in the Mud by Otto Carius and Five Years, Four Fronts.

To go back on topic,i too agree very strongly with Larry about what he writes on Beevor. His books are very detailed and, IMO, fair, though he uses more German sources. Im looking forward to his Leningrad book which i think is out soon.

Ant-im not sure if its in Berlin or Armageddon, but there are some good accounts of the breakout attempts of the 9th Army.

Jonathan

**IanC** · 02-28-2008, 04:50 PM

Originally posted by Polynike View Post

Ant

'In Deadly Combat' by Biderman has just arrived. Bought it after reading your t

Jonathan

Hi Jonathan,

I did the same and have just finished "In Deadly Combat" I won't comment on it too much in case of spoiling it for you but I thought it was a superb book. I would be interested to know what you think.

Cheers

Ian

**Jonathan M** · 02-28-2008, 04:52 PM

Ian

Im starting it tonight, just wet my appetitte for it a bit more
Jonathan

**Anthony N** · 02-29-2008, 03:54 AM

Thanks Jonathan, they should write breakout books, nothing but breakouts

I'm sure you'll love the Biderman book, since reading it i have only read one historian written book, all the others have been more German memoirs.
have now started on:

Masters of death: the SS Einsatzgruppen and the invention of the Holocaust - Richard Rhodes

Haven't got far yet, gruesome but fascinating, especially the psychology of violence & such theories.

Happy reading, you'll have In deadly combat finished soon!
Ant.

**Jonathan M** · 02-29-2008, 04:33 AM

Originally posted by antwhiplash View Post

Thanks Jonathan, they should write breakout books, nothing but breakouts

I'm sure you'll love the Biderman book, since reading it i have only read one historian written book, all the others have been more German memoirs.
have now started on:

Masters of death: the SS Einsatzgruppen and the invention of the Holocaust - Richard Rhodes

Haven't got far yet, gruesome but fascinating, especially the psychology of violence & such theories.

Happy reading, you'll have In deadly combat finished soon!
Ant.

Heres some i've got and enjoyed.
Through Hell For Hitler - Henry Mettelmann (sp)
The Forgortten Soldier - Guy Sajer, controversial but still a good read
Panzer Commander - Hans von Luck
Blood Red Snow, Günter Koschorrek
Panzer Leader, Heinz Guderian
The Forsaken Army, Heinrich Gerlach
Panzer Operations, Memoir of General Raus 1941-1945, Erhard Raus
Fighting in Normandy, David Isby (editor) , a collection of short memoirs and accounts
Flying for the Fuhrer, Heniz Knoke (sp)
At Hitler’s Side, Nicolaus von Below
In the Bunker with Hitler, Bernd Freytag von Loringhoven

These last two are more related to staff officers and their relatioinships with Hitler rather than frontkampfer accounts

Jonathan

**Anthony N** · 02-29-2008, 04:59 AM

Thanks Jonathan, have read Panzer commander (great read) and i have forgotten soldier but have not read it yet.
Will check the others out.
Ant.

**pasoleati** · 03-09-2008, 08:37 PM

Found it! It is in the first or second paragraph of the foreword where he (Crapvor) says how important the study of the final days of the 3rd Reich are ESPECIALLY (his word) because so many German youth have many positive comments on the 3rd Reich. I think the interpretation of his comment can be only one: he wrote the book entirely for political reasons.

**Anthony N** · 03-10-2008, 03:31 AM

Originally posted by pasoleati View Post

Found it! It is in the first or second paragraph of the foreword where he (Crapvor) says how important the study of the final days of the 3rd Reich are ESPECIALLY (his word) because so many German youth have many positive comments on the 3rd Reich. I think the interpretation of his comment can be only one: he wrote the book entirely for political reasons.

Interesting, but that statement isn't political.
The death of 50 million people worldwide & the extermination of somewhere between 10 & 20 million people by German forces should be held up as abhorent & not something to be gloried in.
To me that is Humanitarian rather than political. After all both Stalin & Hitler had millions of people executed. They were at opposite ends of the political spectrum, therefore to me opposing genocide is NOT political.
Just the way i would see it.
Ant.

**evilmike** · 03-10-2008, 04:07 AM

Another fan of the Bidermann book here

just over half way through Hitlers second army the waffen ss, Edmund L. Blandford. Its made up of personal accounts, so far quite interesting, i havent quite read far enough for any berlin breakouts!

**Anthony N** · 03-10-2008, 05:44 AM

Originally posted by evilmike View Post

Another fan of the Bidermann book here

just over half way through Hitlers second army the waffen ss, Edmund L. Blandford. Its made up of personal accounts, so far quite interesting, i havent quite read far enough for any berlin breakouts!

What, no breakouts! It's a scandal!
Seriously though, is the whole book personal accounts, or are personal accounts used in the scheme of things?
Pretty much addicted to good personal accounts.
Ant.

**evilmike** · 03-10-2008, 06:03 AM

from the dust jacket

''in this work its origins are traced via the recollections of men inimately involved. how this small band of men became transformed into a nationwide political protection force is fairly well known, but how some of these men were taken and transformed into a fully militarised force has always been obscure. this book covers the combat experiences of waffen ss soldiers on the battle fronts from 1939-1945, infantrymen, artillerymen, tankmen and even more unusual trades of recuiters and interpreter.''

its very good if you look at the majority of pages most of it is the personal accounts linked together to the next account by a few lines of the author. It begins in the 1920s and iam currently up the the d day landings. its certainly worth a read, ive been loaned a copy from a dealer (i must be spending too much money with him!)

ISBN 1 85310 479 5

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