Could the Japanese of held Hawaii?

[Peter_Suciu]

The question has been raised many time, could the Japanese have captured and actually held Hawaii? The question is asked and resolved in Harry Turtledove's novel End of the Beginning, which is the sequel to last year's Days of Infamy.

These two books are highly recommended to anyone who has any interest in the subject. It is an interesting look at what might have happened had the Japanese sneak attack followed through with a landing of troops. The premise is that Yamamoto is convinced by a Japanese Army officer that troops should land on Hawaii, with the islands being a shield to hold off the Americans.

The two book follow several characters from both sides including the Japanese commanders, a couple of pilots and of course several soldiers; as well as a couple of American civilians, a green volunteer pilot (as he goes through flight training), and of course a hard charging marine.

The most difficult stories to follow are those of the America soldiers who surrender to the Japanese. This is not because the story isn't good or even confusing, it is just what they face during their imprisonment. This isn't an action book with tales of escape plans, prison uprisings or anything like that...just a realistic look at how difficult it would have been for both sides to capture and hold the islands.

As with most Turtledove novels there are some interesting little jabs at history that evoke the real timeline. The attention to detail, like his other novels, is fascinating. The only complaint is that for a two-book series (as opposed to his more epic multi-volume series) there are almost an overwhelming amount of characters. But in fairness this provides a solid picture of the happenings in Hawaii and beyond. A fantastic read from start to finish.

[J.von Canon]

Japs invade Hawaii?

A very,very interesting question:
Yes.I think the Japanese could have held Hawaii-at least for a year or more which would have significantly extended the war's duration.
But they really did'nt know just how weak Hawaii was to repel any invasion effort.I think even a minimal task force could have gobbled up Hawaii in short order-but the huge size of the four main islands would have guaranteed a "guerrilla' presense,coupled with the usual very extreme bad behavior of Japanes forces in all occupied areas.
Any American effort to regain Hawaii would have necessarily been launched from the West coast,a difficult and far flung proposition.
And,had Hawaii been invaded and occupied,Roosevelt would almost certainly have been forced to deal with the Japanese rather than the Germans FIRST,instead of the other way round.
The captivity of many thousands of Americans in Hawaii would demand this...

[Peter_Suciu]

But they really did'nt know just how weak Hawaii was to repel any invasion effort.I think even a minimal task force could have gobbled up Hawaii in short order-but the huge size of the four main islands would have guaranteed a "guerrilla' presense,coupled with the usual very extreme bad behavior of Japanes forces in all occupied areas.
Any American effort to regain Hawaii would have necessarily been launched from the West coast,a difficult and far flung proposition.
And,had Hawaii been invaded and occupied,Roosevelt would almost certainly have been forced to deal with the Japanese rather than the Germans FIRST,instead of the other way round.

You absolutely should read these two books then. Sounds like you would enjoy them. They are a very good read and these address everything you've brought up. The brutality of the Japanese is accurately protrayed without it crossing into stereotype, and the struggles that America faces are the major theme.

Of note, without spoiling anything, Hawaii would not be/was not ideal for a "guerilla" presence, and this is addressed. The lack of food sources in the jungles is a problem.

And I agree with you, Japan wouldn't have gained enough by taking Hawaii. The only way Japan could have won the war was NOT to go to war with America.

[J.von Canon]

Books

Peter:I will try and find those books you mentioned for a look.
But I would differ with the author IF he thinks the islands would'nt be a good A.O. for a guerrilla movement.
Hawaii would be a good place to forage for "guerrillas"(sea fishing at night,when the fish bite;abundant crops throughout the islands,comfortable climate year round,and rugged areas where "guerrilla' crops could likely be small-scale harvested and concealed,plus an almost certainly "sympathetic" population for food,intel,shelter,etc.-if the Phillippines are used as a similar known situation.)
Sounds like an interesting read.Is it current?
(I seldom read military fiction as so much of it is so bad...)

[Peter_Suciu]

Sounds like an interesting read.Is it current?
(I seldom read military fiction as so much of it is so bad...)

Days of Infamy came out last year, and is in paperback later this month, and the sequel End of the Beginning came out last week.


The author, Harry Turtledove, is a former professor of ancient history...but he mostly writes "alternate history." He did a series where the South wins the Civil War and then there is a showdown during WWI with the USA siding with Germany, and the CSA on the side of England and France. The series continues during the post-war and then continues with WWII. Very interesting mix of historic and fictional characters.

His first standalone alternate history novel was called Guns of the South, and it was about South African time travellers giving AK-47s to General Lee's Army of Northern Virginia. That might sound silly, but he does such a good job with the settings and locations that it comes off as a great read. Plus, he "sampled" Lee's memoirs to get the feel for how the General spoke. So much of the dialog is based on things Lee actually said.

[J.von Canon]

Thanks.

I'll have to check him out.
I recall reading a few lines of one of his paperback books lying on a cot in Honduras a few years back,but did'nt get far.
Thanks for the tip.

[Chris Boonzaier]

His first standalone alternate history novel was called Guns of the South, and it was about South African time travellers giving AK-47s to General Lee's Army of Northern Virginia. That might sound silly, but he does such a good job with the settings and locations that it comes off as a great read. Plus, he "sampled" Lee's memoirs to get the feel for how the General spoke. So much of the dialog is based on things Lee actually said.

I read that one..... why are we always the bad guys !!

[J.von Canon]

Bad guys?

Bad guys?
Hell Chris,anyone helping the Confederates were the GOOD guys!
(I've often fantisized how much I wished that I had been able to set up Claymores to help the Army of N.Va. at Petersburg against Grant's blue hordes!

[Bcarver]

These books sound cool, need to search the net for one. How about if the ANV had a squad of Waffen SS men with Mp40's, MG42's and flame throwers? Think that would drive the blue bellies back to Washington? Wow, the possibilities are endless.

[Peter_Suciu]

Bad guys?
Hell Chris,anyone helping the Confederates were the GOOD guys!
(I've often fantisized how much I wished that I had been able to set up Claymores to help the Army of N.Va. at Petersburg against Grant's blue hordes!

Then you should give this one a try. It is interesting, starts out just before the Battle of the Wilderness, and Lee is actually more concerned about food at one point than rifles.

Other than the time travel it isn't that far fetched really. There is some discussions on how the South couldn't possibly manage to produce the ammo even if they somehow could mass produce the guns.

[Peter_Suciu]

These books sound cool, need to search the net for one. How about if the ANV had a squad of Waffen SS men with Mp40's, MG42's and flame throwers? Think that would drive the blue bellies back to Washington? Wow, the possibilities are endless.

I love this kind of stuff. The thing with this premise is whether Lee would trust the Waffen SS? You have to read Guns of the South but part of the plot is that Confederate leaders aren't so sure they can trust these strange men with strange accents. What are their motives for one thing?

Sending weapons as gifts is one thing, offer troops to a struggling government is another. How would Lee, Davis et al, know they could trust these Germans? And the final point I always think about...after three days would the Waffen SS men in any shape to fight?

I know conditions in Russia were terrible and maybe for men from 1941 going back to 1864 might not be so difficult, but any of us going back to that period would be sick for days. The food, the water, the sanitation conditions, etc. would have us on our backs in no time! So unless the SS brought good doctors how I don't know how long they'd a fighting force.

I always laugh at movies like TimeLine, these modern folks find plenty of clean water and they don't get sick!

[J.von Canon]

books

Somehow I just don't think Gen.Lee would find too much in common with the Waffen SS;really...
And you're certainly right about assimilation of modern people to 19th.C. rough American conditions.They would sicken & die very quickly(probably bringing some modern nasty microbes to the period themselves too!)
But these books DO sound interesting and you've piqued my interest enough to go give them a long look.
Is the author an American Indian or something?
Unusual name.
Names like that in these parts usually reflect American Indian lineage...

[Peter_Suciu]

Here is a good source for all kinds of what-if books:

http://members.aol.com/dalecoz/dale2.htm

This includes both essay style writings and historical fiction.

[PANZERPIONIERE]

I read his series (4 books) WORLD WAR with the reptilians coming to earth at the beginning of WWII.
I liked the part when they had a bounty on Skorzenys head because he stole uranium in a commando mission. They used it to increase the pace of the nuclear program.
Also the Tiger II using the advanced sabot rounds against the alians tanks. Or the trench fighting around Washington DC.
I did not read the second series when the Aliens show up to colonize the earth thinking it was conquered already by their army.
Steve

[Peter_Suciu]

I did not read the second series when the Aliens show up to colonize the earth thinking it was conquered already by their army.

The post-war Colonization series is very good too. In fact I like it more than the WWII series. Molotov is the leader of the USSR and Himmler runs the show in Germany. Very good series!

I also agree that Skorzeny is great as the hero/anti-hero in the World War series. And another good point that Turtledove pulls off is his little references to actual history. A "Lizard" pilot is captured the Japanese and they hold him in a prison Nagasaki, and they're beating him and he says, "I wish the Race would blow this city up, death would be better. But what's the odds of a bomb destroying this dreadful place."