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**phild** · 07-17-2020, 01:11 AM

Wow more ignorance. If any “confederate” committee treason then by your own definition every founding father also committed treason. I realize that winning a separation effort makes the charge of treason moot in all practical sense. If the confederate states did not actually secede from the union then please explain why the union forced each confederate state to go through a process to be re-admitted to the union?

You and Celtic insist that the confederacy and all of its citizens were evil for their “sin” of owning slaves. If that practice is indeed the bar of evil then every African,middle eastern and major European power is also evil for the same reasons as are most Latin American countries, most of Asia and of course most Native American tribes.

**808** · 07-21-2020, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by phild View Post

I assume by your last comments and your location that you are European. If so, I laude your taking the time to have some interest in this period of American history as that effort is more than perhaps 95% of Americans have bothered with. I would only caution you to be circumspect in the accounts and histories that you rely on. Many “historians” have an agenda and I would say most all do these last 40-50 years. I realize this was also true by southern (and northern) historians in the years after the war as well.

So what books have you read on the subject?

One sees that other members here in this topic have cited historical records and quoted historic research done by American historians, and your reply to them is ... Oh that's ignorance and more ignorance!

I think it is only fair , if you are going to contradict someone, that you back up what you say with historic facts and book references. because it makes you look like a pretentious dumb fück contradicting historians.

What books have you read on the subject? and where are your sources of information coming from? you are making sweeping statements with nothing to back up what you're saying.

**phild** · 07-21-2020, 03:10 PM

I have no idea what you are talking about! The only cited sources in this thread, other than Stephens and the CS constitution, is blurb by Horton on slavery and several quotes from Wilbur Cash. Cash was a few different things but he was in no stretch of any sane persons imagination a historian!
There is no purpose served here in attempting to establish my credentials or the substance of my opinions on the subject. What people don’t understand or don’t know is their loss, not mine. History and pop culture have collided and what we see today is beginning of that debacle. Serious pursuit of knowledge is passé and all we need to know and understand can be gleaned from professors and authors wearing skinny jeans and donning man buns on cable news shows.

**celtic** · 07-25-2020, 03:46 PM

Originally posted by phild View Post

I have no idea what you are talking about! The only cited sources in this thread, other than Stephens and the CS constitution, is blurb by Horton on slavery and several quotes from Wilbur Cash. Cash was a few different things but he was in no stretch of any sane persons imagination a historian!
There is no purpose served here in attempting to establish my credentials or the substance of my opinions on the subject. What people don’t understand or don’t know is their loss, not mine. History and pop culture have collided and what we see today is beginning of that debacle. Serious pursuit of knowledge is passé and all we need to know and understand can be gleaned from professors and authors wearing skinny jeans and donning man buns on cable news shows.

'' The above comment does not merit a serious response as it reflects such a degree of ignorance that facts and understanding will never conquer ''

**Leroy** · 07-25-2020, 05:13 PM

Just for some worthwhile reading and context, I recommend the books of James I. Robertson, Jr., a very respected scholar. There are many of them listed on Amazon and other sources.....

If you want to know a bit about him, look up his New York Times obituary on Google. In died in November of last year.

**Nische** · 07-25-2020, 06:28 PM

Thank you Leroy for the recommendation; he has has authored quite a few books. Do you have a recommendation on which one to start with?

**Leroy** · 07-25-2020, 06:43 PM

Robert E. Lee: Virginian Soldier, American Citizen

and

Stonewall Jackson : The Man, the Soldier, the Legend

He was a true scholar and believed firmly that history can only be understood in context. I had the privilege of meeting and talking with him years ago and he was a modest and impressive man.

**Lampwick** · 07-27-2020, 08:36 AM

When I was in my 30's the word 'miniseries' completely flummoxed me as I was pronouncing it 'minIZeries'. I searched through every dictionary in the house and it wasn't until a couple of years later that my daughter read the TV Times to me with the word in the listing that I twigged.

**celtic** · 08-02-2020, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by phild View Post

it is unfortunate that the confederacy did not embrace a policy and plan to free all slaves from the outset because it would have been the morally right thing to do and would have also removed that future arrow from Lincoln’s quiver. It is a fact that many southern leaders called on the confederate government to free large populations slaves for the war efforts and they knew this would lead to total freedom. These men included Lee, Cleburne and many others and in fact part of this act was approved near the end of the war but too little too late.

Interesting that you mention Cleburne. In early 1864 he made the proposal that was quickly shot down and buried. It was seen by some Confederates as treasonous . Cleburne was later ignored and passed over for promotion in the Army of Tennessee.

''' During the war's first three and a half years, Richmond refused to consider this policy because it seemed to threaten both slavery and white supremacy, the twin pillars of southern economy, social relations, culture, and ideology. Having seceded from the Union and gone to war to protect those institutions, few southern political and community leaders were ready to seek military victory through a policy that apparently abandoned the original purpose of the struggle ''' Bruce Levine - Confederate Emancipation ( page 38)

''' Southerners were enslaved by a system of values which stamped the Negros as inferiors, and to make the Negro a soldier would be to call into question the very foundation of their mythology, or compel them to invent new myths.''' Benjamin Quarles - The Negro in the Civil War ( page 278 )

''' The simple believe was, the Negro was biologically inferior to the white. hence he had to be treated as children. So every time this measure would come up to enlist Negros in the Confederate Army, it would be shot down for that very reason.''' James Robertson jr

**phild** · 08-02-2020, 07:11 PM

As I’ve stated after every post, yes all true, to a point. That point is however a key point because all of these cultural or social based “historians” that you cite use some truth to paint a very encompassing testing of a society that was much more complex and nuanced than they want to admit. Furthermore and very telling of the author is the fact virtually every statement that was cited about “pervasive” southern bigotry and prejudiced would also apply to a majority at the time (and 100 years later even!) of those in north. Somehow they feel compelled to make southerners their Judas goat with which to hang all of their own sins.

**phild** · 08-02-2020, 07:30 PM

Maybe I should clarify that in my original post when I said slavery would have probably ended in the south 10-15 years after the civil war even with the lack of a northern victory (I stated ended for many reasons) I was not stating that this would have happened as a result of any great moral awakening that would have occurred ( just like that did not drive the abolition in the north) but rather due to international economic trade pressures and opinion much the same as happened to Brazil in the early 1880s and most everywhere else except for many places in Africa and the Ottoman Empire.

Yes Cleburne (and Lee) were ahead of their time and the confederate government but I mentioned that aspect to illustrate that the thinking on slavery in the south was not monolithic nor was it in the north.

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