I read that if you find remains in Germany,,call the Polizei or Volksbund. The family is usually tracked down and they offer the items back. Most times they do not want them and the searcher get them,(Helms Etc) As I say again,,,Places of surrrender NO REMAINS. Farmers are usually ok to let you search on there property and kind of think your just a nut. Germanys law is any ww2 recent history is yours,,Pre Christian(Roman) and all is required to turn into museum.
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Iam Uncle Sam
That’s who Iam
Been hiding out
In a rock and roll band -
Chris
I haven't read all the responses to this thread, but I have to say, Chris, that your attitude towards these guys who found these German helmets is unbelievable. I have to say, I smell some colonial jealousy
I was in Poland and went metal detecting around forests and I thoroughly, historically enjoyed it. These helmets are part of European history and if people want to dig in "their own back yard" to discover their history - then so be it."
My friend has many ground-dug helmets and he in my opinion has rescued them to be enjoyed by people like me. I bet if you were with those guys, fag on, with a metal detector and you heard a beeping sound (not Britney Spears), you'd be the first asking for a spade. Maybe because in Virginia, all you run the risk of finding is rusty pepsi lids and an old Ford spark plug. I have to say Chris, I (excuse the pun) I detect an element of jealousy towards us Europeans who have easy access to a wealth of German military items - some of course from the ground. I even found a bullet in my glass of milkshake!!
I managed to acquire a EKII directly from a veteren, comlete with his SA Sports badge, black wound badge and his picture. Surely this should be therefore, tampering with history, because the afforementioned items are now in England and not from source, Silesia, Poland.
Come on Chris, these items of scrap as you call them create a wealth of knowledge...just like you would look at a rusty sheriff's badge with excitement and intrigue!Comment
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Very interesting thread indeed. Thanks for sharing.Comment
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CAM-S I happen to agree with you.......yes I know what pot hunting is......Comment
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red tape
You think government crap is thick in Europe, try the States. I used to work at an army base in Texas a few years ago. Its a BIG place and there are many old native american stone dwellings, etc. God forbid I should find an arrow head and put it in my pocket! Its OK for tanks and humvees to roll on them but its NOT OK for you to take one home.
You'd probably get shot for digging civil war stuff up.
So as long as you're showing the proper respect and be scientific about documenting your digs I see nothing wrong with it. Screw the government, they're the ones that sent all those boys to their death anyway.
CheersComment
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Lets end this discussion!
THE REGUALAR FUNERAL INDUSTRY OF TODAY DOES NOT APPLY OR WORK IN THE MILITARY!!!!!!!!Originally posted by Jean-Loup
JL- Are you in the French Military???????
I just lost a fellow soldier in Afghanistan that I knew. Proffessional Soldiers have a huge respect for fallen commerades and Soldiers of any nationality who have died. If there is anyone on this Board who is or was a soldier and does not agree let them speak up. I think that almost everyone of them will say that if they lost a buddy, that they would want them left alone and not touched. Why should this change for these soldiers? Is it because they are Germans, and you like there Helmets or something?
Just because the Funeral Industry or the Volksbund does not work today, doesn't mean that you can disrespect what was left in the graves just for the sake of "RECORDING HISTORY". Why don't you track that specific Volksbund find and see if they contacted a family. If they did whay don't you ask them how they feel about having the bones.
You are just a Relic Hunter. Leave recording the history of dead soldiers to proffessional groups like "No Mans Land" or "De Diggers".
I really don't care about being a memeber of this forum if the general consensus is to dig up and keep the remains of German or any other soldiers. You can rip me apart on the forum, yell all you want, but when it comes down to it, I don't have or ever had human bones in my house.
Lets leave this thread alone and stop a stupid discussion.
CamComment
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Yes, this discution is stupid, because I am talking to a person who is misinformed, and has a strong prejudice against me.
"You are just a Relic Hunter. Leave recording the history of dead soldiers to proffessional groups like "No Mans Land" or "De Diggers". "
Do relic hunters usualy do stuff like this: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...highlight=jean . In case you didnt no it, the Diggers are made up of regular civilians exactly like me, and they have also been accused by jealous or misinformed people of grave robbing. Do you see many relic hunters who are medical students with a strong interest in forensics, and who are participating on a volunteer basis in activities of forensic science like for example identification of war dead?
"Just because the Funeral Industry or the Volksbund does not work today, doesn't mean that you can disrespect what was left in the graves just for the sake of "RECORDING HISTORY". Why don't you track that specific Volksbund find and see if they contacted a family. If they did whay don't you ask them how they feel about having the bones. "
That is actualy a good sujestion, but for the handfull of bones I found that should not even have been there to start with, there is no way of knowing who they belonged to, so... There was no disrespect done to any bones anywhere. Why do you automaticaly have to expect the worst.
"THE REGUALAR FUNERAL INDUSTRY OF TODAY DOES NOT APPLY OR WORK IN THE MILITARY!!!!!!!!
JL- Are you in the French Military??????? "
No, I am not in the military, and I dont see what that has to do with anything. Soldiers arent the only ones to lose friends. And yes, as far as I have been able to see on several occasions, funeral industry in the military and in the civilian world is the same, though you have to see it to be able to see it of course... When I have found human remains personaly, I have always treated then with more or the same respect then I have seen from professional forensic or funeral industry employees in Canada and France.
"I just lost a fellow soldier in Afghanistan that I knew. Proffessional Soldiers have a huge respect for fallen commerades and Soldiers of any nationality who have died. If there is anyone on this Board who is or was a soldier and does not agree let them speak up. I think that almost everyone of them will say that if they lost a buddy, that they would want them left alone and not touched. Why should this change for these soldiers? Is it because they are Germans, and you like there Helmets or something?"
Well it just happens to be that these soldiers were dug up long ago, and their personal effects abandoned as trash. I have now found these effects, and showed them to people so that these soldiers can be remembered. There is nothing disrespectfull about that. When they exhume bodies, items any items either then bones are usualy left behind, and there is nothing wrong in keeping and caring for these items.
Your main problem at the beggining was that I was not an archeologist, and yet was digging. The problem wasnt disrespect. Now you have foundsomething else to complain about. This leads me to believe you are more jealous then anything else.
Acts are either disrespectfull, or either they arent. Whether the hands that commit the act are those of an archeologist or not dont change anything. Why dont you tell the archeologists you love so much to go and rebury the remains of Tutankamon and the other Eyptian kings, instead of having them on display for tourists at the Egyptology museum in Cairo?
Your main problem is that you are obviously lacking in knoleage about the "real world" when it concerns archeology, funerals, and the world of death, but you dont know that.
JLLast edited by Jean-Loup; 08-04-2006, 04:36 PM.Comment
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I just read what you wrote again, and I just feel disapointed and pissed off.
I spend time posting pictures of something interesting, for fellow forum members to see. I dug up these things in my free time by pure passion, and so that the war and these soldiers in particular will be remembered. Mostly, I posted these pictures as a counter balance to all the mint items collectors regularly post on the forum completely forgetting what they represent.
Then some guy like you come along. From your post it is obvious you have no, or only very limited knoleagde about me and what I do, about the Volksbund, about "the Diggers", about archeology and the normal funeral indistry. And yet, you come along here with you high moral standards but lack of knoleage of reality, judging me and what I do, and writting things I find insulting.
Why dont you come and post pictures of what you do on your week ends, tell us how your museum work or whatever goes; post pictures of yourself; so that we can also judge if your conduct is of the highest moral or not.
Its to easy to come along critisizing what others do and acting superior.
JL
PS: here are a few other links you might like concerning my "just relic hunter" activities:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ad.php?t=92776
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...highlight=fssf
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ghlight=zagreb
And here are links concerning human bones. Not that I think people should keep human bones; but when you find a few fragments of bone of a person who can not be identified, then although it is maybe not the most ethical thing to do to keep them; it also isnt exactly blue murder.
http://www.boneroom.com/bone/humanbones.html
http://www.roadsideamerica.com/set/arms.htmlLast edited by Jean-Loup; 08-05-2006, 05:36 PM.Comment
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i enjoy your finds and adventuresComment
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i think cam needs to read better. there is a difference between digging in a garbage dump with no bodies, and digging up graves.
Jean-loup clearly said that the bodies had been removed years before, and the equiptment found was thrown back in the ground and burried. while the bodies found were taken away and properly dealt with. so what was left was garbage.
i dont see where any one would have a problem digging up a dump site. and if any one is that sensitive about owning things that belonged to a dead man. get rid of your collection, because all the previous owners are dead. and you dont know if your stuff was taken from a body in the field, or from moved graves right after the war, or from bodies found later. if you dont like some things, dont bust the chops of others that dont see it your way. i'm not into ground dug stuff because of how it looks. nothing more. but i dont critisize those who find an interest in it.
P.S. Cam, i got out in 1976. my loyalty to fallen soldiers was, and is to my own. Semper FiComment
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Thanks for your support. This thread is several years old now, and anybody who has any doubts about the way I treat human remains or historical battlegrounds can look at this thread: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=194678
I dont know what Cams problem was; maybe a bit of jealousy, as seeing his age, he must not be the most experienced archeologist around. As we say in French, he is trying to be more royalist then the king. Maybe one day he can show us pictures of the way he does things, instead of coming to complain in my threads.
In retrospect, I dug on a private property, with the owners permission, so there was absolutely nothing illegal with my activities, and if Cam isnt happy, he can become a French citizen, and vote for a presidential candidate that will change the laws about digging in private properties.
The site had not much archeological value as it had been disturbed completely when the bodies were exhumed, and I consider myself experienced and responsible enaugh to have recorded what little "archeological" information there was to be recorded.
JLLast edited by Jean-Loup; 03-21-2007, 02:50 PM.Comment
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I think this Forum universally condemns digging up graves to acquire and profit from the "loot" discovered. To the extent there have been participation in digging up graves or remains, it is invariably to recover the remains. What JL did was excavate a site that had already been cleared by the German authorities. I fail to find a problem with his actions. People should read the posts before flying off the keyboard and writing their emotions
When you go home
Tell them for us and say
For your tomorrow
We gave our today
--Inscription in the 5th Marine Division cemetery,
Iwo Jima 1945Comment
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A professional of what? Since when do you have to be a professional to dig a hole in a private property, and exhume objects that archeologists still consider worthless crap because they are not old enaugh, and will not give them any new information about WW2?
Would any professional archeologist have had the slightest interest in this site? I highly doubt it, exept if he was a militaria collector himself.
As a medical student, I estimate that I am at least as qualified as an archeologist to dig up a former grave, and as a militaria freak, I think I am more qualified then the vast majority of archeologists to interpret the discovery of WW2 equipments.
JLComment
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