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**Hofstetter** · 05-26-2012, 07:39 AM

From what I read in "The Blond Knight", In that incident at Ploesti , Hartmann had 8 mustangs chasing him and he had to weave and maneuver to evade being shot down until he ran out of fuel and had to bail out.
He certainly did not out run them.

**Black Hornet** · 06-08-2012, 06:07 PM

His words. Outran 8 of em. In the book you mention, he specifically mentioned jinking left & right as he slowly but surely put distance between he & his pursuers, that would technically be considered "outrunning em"

& that they were over Romania means these 8 P-51's were not full of fuel, hence not slowed down with full fuel load. & that there were 8 of em means one can't say, well it might've had a bad motor, 1 mebbe, 8 no way.

Hartmann was there, not much point in arguing with an eyewitness I don't suppose.

Goebel's account can be found in a Flight Journal article, Dunno how many times I fired at that guy said he. Hartmann said he considered him a poor shot. http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...?f=49&t=103914

Shot down 2 P-51's prior to the chase as well.

**Black Hornet** · 06-08-2012, 10:39 PM

Here's a 109 outrunning a P-51 both uphill & downhill. Not particularly unusual.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlfOWZHEGNk

**Hofstetter** · 06-24-2012, 04:30 AM

Originally posted by Black Hornet View Post

Here's a 109 outrunning a P-51 both uphill & downhill. Not particularly unusual.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlfOWZHEGNk

I would say it's more unusual than usual, given the specifications of both aircraft, see this link at 21 mins, and 21mins 30 secs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtAMa...eature=related

and a quote at 25 mins "the mustang is over 50mph faster than the 109"

Also you say "öutrun 8 of them, his words" which page number? I don't see it.

**Jean-Loup** · 06-24-2012, 09:02 PM

"His words. Outran 8 of em."

How much do a T and an H cost?

JL

**Fritz** · 06-25-2012, 04:48 AM

Originally posted by Hofstetter View Post

I would say it's more unusual than usual, given the specifications of both aircraft, see this link at 21 mins, and 21mins 30 secs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtAMa...eature=related

and a quote at 25 mins "the mustang is over 50mph faster than the 109"

Also you say "öutrun 8 of them, his words" which page number? I don't see it.

A 109 is not a 109, not sure which variant Hartmann was flying on that day but the later G and K variants were IMO able to outrun a P51 D under certain conditions. The later variants all had Notleistung available which would increase engine power by several 100hp and with that system engaged I think the top speed will exceed that of a P51 D, especially should the P51 pilot not engage his WEP.

So, I think it may well be true.

Cheers

**Black Hornet** · 06-27-2012, 02:57 AM

Page 237 as I mentioned. Just re-read it a few days ago, it hasn't changed or departed as of yet.

As to listed speeds, one should always take em with a grain of salt. P-51 had small bomb racks for example which slowed it down 3-4 mph in actual combat. & G-10 is usually listed at 429 mph, (1st version), but it had more HP in later versions with different motors.

Plus some were special lighweight models from the Erla haube factory & faster than other factory models. Like he said, a 109 is not a 109. Much variation.

K-4 east front had wide blade prop for better climb, west front K-4 had prop designed for speed as another example.

Later that month, during his fifth combat with American pilots, he shot down two more P-51s before being forced to bail out, when eight other P-51s ran his Messerschmitt out of fuel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Hartmann

**Hofstetter** · 06-27-2012, 05:52 AM

Oh I missed it in the first post
" From "The Aces Talk" : Eric Hartmann, page 237"
Point taken

Regards
Greg

Originally posted by Black Hornet View Post

Page 237 as I mentioned. Just re-read it a few days ago, it hasn't changed or departed as of yet.

As to listed speeds, one should always take em with a grain of salt. P-51 had small bomb racks for example which slowed it down 3-4 mph in actual combat. & G-10 is usually listed at 429 mph, (1st version), but it had more HP in later versions with different motors.

Plus some were special lighweight models from the Erla haube factory & faster than other factory models. Like he said, a 109 is not a 109. Much variation.

K-4 east front had wide blade prop for better climb, west front K-4 had prop designed for speed as another example.

Later that month, during his fifth combat with American pilots, he shot down two more P-51s before being forced to bail out, when eight other P-51s ran his Messerschmitt out of fuel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Hartmann

**Black Hornet** · 06-28-2012, 06:44 PM

No morries mate.

Great book, page 154 I believe, Kurt Buhligen said re P-51, : we could outturn it with either one, FW 190 or BF 109.

Last page Galland comments on accelaration as being important in a fighter.

Now I've drifted, but here's another rare comment on P-51. Bear in mind, its from 43, G-6 or G-2 would be the 'then' 109 models.

Wing Commander Peter Dudjeon, a former squadron commander of one of the Army Cooperation Units, was contacted on 31 May, 1943, for the purpose of obtaining information on their daylight intrusion raids (Rhubarbs) using the North American Mustang I and IA aircraft.

34. Actual combat has proven that the aircraft can run away from anything the Germans have. It’s only inferior points are that it can’t climb as well as the ME-109 and FW-190 and that at the slower speeds of close combat it loses effectiveness of aileron control and therefore has a poor rate of roll – but its turning radius with a slight amount of flap is shorter than either of the German aircraft.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o.../e-geh-16.html

**Fritz** · 06-29-2012, 12:00 PM

Originally posted by Black Hornet View Post

Now I've drifted, but here's another rare comment on P-51. Bear in mind, its from 43, G-6 or G-2 would be the 'then' 109 models...

was contacted on 31 May, 1943

Yes, as you said, that was 1943...In 44 or even 45 the Luftwaffe had a good deal of aircrafts that could outrun the P51....even Bombers.

However, we must of course focus on the 109 that Hartmann was flying. Earlier types are inferior to the P51 in top speeds. In 1943 the P51 was top. In 44 it was good in late 44 average IMHO when compared to the Luftwaffe's state of the art.

Of course only a fraction of the Luftwaffe aircrafts represented the state of the art that late in the war.

Ta152, Bf 109 K4, Me 262, Me163, Ar 234 were IMO all capable of outrunning a P51 D...So later in the war Mr. Dudjeon's statement, which of course was correct in 1943, was outdated.

Cheers

**Black Hornet** · 06-29-2012, 04:37 PM

Merlin engined P-51's began arriving in Europe late 43, November I believe.

Here's a cool link re captured P-51s.

http://www.mustang.gaetanmarie.com/a...ny/germany.htm

The few pilots who were lucky enough to test-fly the captured Mustangs seemed to appreciate the aircraft. They already knew the Mustang was a very potent adversary to the Luftwaffe's main frontline fighters, the Me 109 and the Fw 190. Walter Wolfrum was among these pilots : "During the war I had the opportunity to fly captured P-47s and P-51s. I didn't like the Thunderbolt. It was too big. The cockpit was immense and unfamiliar. After so may hours in the snug confines of the 109, everything felt out of reach and too far away from the pilot. Although the P-51 was a fine airplane to fly, because of its reactions and capabilities, it too was disconcerting. With all those levers, controls and switches in the cockpit. I'm surprised [their] pilots could find the time to fight. We had nothing like this in the 109. Everything was simple and very close to the pilot. You fitted into the cockpit like a hand in a glove. Our instrumentation was complete, but simple: throttle, mixture control and propeller pitch. How [the] pilots were able to work on all their gadgets and still function amazes me.".

& the P-51 gets loads of attn, but in the overall picture it should be remembered that it was arguably the US's 5th entry in ETO fighter designs,( if one discounts the Hawk 75 which went to France), & the previous 4 weren't exactly smash success's. I respect the P-40, & it was the 1st plane to beat the Japanese, & the D model P-47 did pretty well, but it took 5 attempts to catch up to or get on an even keel with German fighter designs. By then the 262 arrived keeping the Germans ahead on a technical level if nothing else.

So as good as it was, it still took 5 attempts to get there. Had the Corsair been sent to Europe, might've been a different story.

**Black Hornet** · 06-30-2012, 02:19 PM

Speaking of levers, Russian planes had the same problem, think texting & driving. Speaks volumes for German automated controls. Only post war jets were similiarly designed.

Here a Yugoslavian pilot compares 109 to Yak 3.

The main shortage of Jak 3 was its obsolete technique. Its cockpit was spartan, everything had to do be done manually. Particular problem was when you had to get air compressor into its second gear when rapidly changing altitude. In such situations engine is not receiving the right mixture of air and fuel and is loosing power, so you had to be very concentrated in doing it all synchronized and in exact moment. The same applies for the oil cooler which was adjusted with an mechanical wheel, during the dive the cooler had to be closed and during the climb opened as the engine needed more air. All of it was automatio on the Messerschmitt. In Jak 3, throttle handle and the propeler pitch handle were beside each other and you had to move them simultaneously, so all the time you pulled the throttle you had to think about the pitch. So imagine when you are in a midst of a combat, chasing and being chased, turning the wheels, setting the handles, adjusting the pitch, setting the gunsight and at the same time manouvring and trying to hit your enemy. Messerschmitt had it all automatic.
Messerschmitt had ailerons (I think this is not a right translation but I really cant remember the exact english word for "predkrilca" my note: He was actually referring to leading edge slots) to prevent it from stalling and Jak stalled even on highest speed.

Test pilot Lerche on LA-5

In the summer of 1943, a brand-new La-5 made a forced landing on a German airfield providing the Luftwaffe with an opportunity to test-fly the newest Soviet fighter. Test pilot Hans-Werner Lerche wrote a detailed report of his experience.[

All of the engine controls (throttle, mixture, propeller pitch, radiator and cowl flaps, and supercharger gearbox) had separate levers which served to distract the pilot during combat to make constant adjustments or risk suboptimal performance. For example, rapid acceleration required moving no less than six levers. In contrast, contemporary German aircraft, especially the BMW 801 radial-engined variants of the Focke-Wulf Fw 190 front line fighter, had largely automatic engine controls with the pilot operating a single lever and electromechanical devices, like the Kommandogerät pioneering engine computer on the radial-engined Fw 190s, making the appropriate adjustments.

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Hartmann, pulling away from P-51s

Hartmann, pulling away from P-51s

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