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Wow. You know they probably as a nation would have prefered to join the war activly with Hitler but knew better being so near England. -
My family is Irish and I was surprised growing up how many Irish not only hated England but wished Germany had won.Comment
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Many English feel the same about the Irish.Originally posted by Bcarver View Post
There is a radio programme about these brave men and the suffering they went through after the war on Radio 4 at 12.30 on Wednesday 4th.Comment
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Fairly disgraceful of the Irish Government to allow this state of affairs.
Mind you, I never quite trust the 'neutrals'.Comment
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i dont think you can just blithely saw that the Irish as a nation wanted the Germans to win, yes some even alot did but not all,what you have to remember to is that the Easter rising/war of independence was VERY fresh in most families minds so there was some people who wanted the Germans to beat the British! also remember the Irish were at times more neutral to the allies then the Germans! that is to say there was regular over flights by allied planes that weren't challenged and German prisoners of war weren't sent back to Germany unlike British prisoners of war! i do think what the Irish government did was terrible and iv signed the petition to pardon these men but cant seen the government doing anything about to soon!Comment
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A couple of points here, first what was the penalty for desertion from other european armies during the war (either belligerent or nuetral under threat of invasion)? You can hardly expect a pat on the back and 'ah well mate at least you tried'. They were needeed to defend their own country, it must be remembered that many of these deserters left the Irish army mainly because of 1. boredom in the Irish army 2. better pay in the English army. Most ideologial volunteers from irieland had the good sense not to join the Irish army first.
Second, I'm amazed at the level of ignorance shown here regarding the British / Irish relationship that existed at the time and also now. Despite what you may have heard from from second or third generation Paddy, both countries have been closely linked for over 800 years and despite the messy war of independence, both countries and their peoples have always been mutually respectful of each other.
Half baked history doesn't taste that good.
MarkComment
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For a better overview of this subject I recommend this more balanced article from the History Ireland magazine :
http://www.forthesakeofexample.com/D...ber%202011.pdf
That bbc piece is designed for a less informed audience with no clue of the context or background to British Irish relations during this time frame. It is one of the poorest quality pieces I have ever seen on the bbc website.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16287211
A few points to make in relation to that, firstly you don't 'swap uniforms'. What happened is that these Irishmen volunteered for the National army of their own country, Ireland, which they then, at a later stage deserted from. Many of these deserters then travelled to the UK to enlist in the British Army instead.Five thousand Irish soldiers who swapped uniforms to fight for the British against Hitler went on to suffer years of persecution.
One of them, 92-year-old Phil Farrington, took part in the D-Day landings and helped liberate the German death camp at Bergen-Belsen - but he wears his medals in secret.
Even to this day, he has nightmares that he will be arrested by the authorities and imprisoned for his wartime service.
"They would come and get me, yes they would," he said in a frail voice at his home in the docks area of Dublin.
And his 25-year-old grandson, Patrick, confirmed: "I see the fear in him even today, even after 65 years."
Mr Farrington's fears are not groundless.
He was one of about 5,000 Irish soldiers who deserted their own neutral army to join the war against fascism and who were brutally punished on their return home as a result.
They were formally dismissed from the Irish army, stripped of all pay and pension rights, and prevented from finding work by being banned for seven years from any employment paid for by state or government funds.
A special "list" was drawn up containing their names and addresses, and circulated to every government department, town hall and railway station - anywhere the men might look for a job.
This, at a time when Ireland was under a moderately realistic threat of invasion from either Germany or Britain (who had just invaded Neutral Iceland and Norway).
Treatment of wartime deserters varies from country to country but losing pay and pension and being barred from future state employment for 7 years is not the worst, nor is it 'brutal' as the article suggests - it is more than fair in my opinion. Considering in the years previous to this Irishmen could be executed by the freestate for so much as carrying a revolver. At the time of the 2nd World War the Curragh was a large scale internment camp for up to about 2000 IRA members, imprisoned indefinitely without charge.
That article exploits an elderly, psychologically damaged individual in my estimation. There is no realistic cause for that 92 yr old man to live in apprehension. He deserted the Irish National Army to fight in the British army, his punishment was loss of benefits and being barred from future State employment for 7 yrs.
That's it. That john waite article is designed to hype a radio documentary to increase it's audience, it's exploitative, tabloid, sensationalist nonsense in my view.
Non deserting Irishmen who wished to join the British War effort were of course permitted. I don't have the figures to hand but approx 70,000 Irishmen fought in the British Army during WW2, many with distinction. I don't think this figure includes those who worked in the war industries or Merchant Navy etc.Comment
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P.S.
That BBC article quotes a 'Professor of History' who is not a professor of history at all but an english lecturer :
http://www.tcd.ie/English/staff/acad...ald-morgan.phpComment
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mmmm
I do not know if this is true....But didn't the Irish Prime Minister sent his condolences to Germany on hearing the death of Hitler? I'm sure Churchill criticised that after the war. I don't think the Irish knew the true extent of the crimes the Nazis had commited against the Jews ect. There was rumour that Ubouts docked in Irish Ports.Perhaps Paddywhack can chime in as he is quite knowledgable on these matters.Comment
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In keeping with diplomatic practice the Irish Taoiseach Eamon DeValera paid a courtesy call to Eduard Hempel the German Ambassador to Ireland, at the German Legation on the news of Hitler's death. I believe he was perfectly right to do this & was an expression of Sympathy to the German people on the loss of their Leader. The President of Ireland however did not (as he had on the death of FDR) nor were flags flown at half mast (as they had also been on the death of FDR).Originally posted by Top Buzzer View Post
Ironically if it had been confirmed A.H. had committed suicide then no such call would have been made (as it would have been in conflict with Catholic faith).
There is an interesting article on this topic here:
http://www.nationalarchives.ie/topics/AAE/Article.pdf
That u-boats being refuelled thing was wartime black propaganda.Comment
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Originally posted by Mark McShane View Post
I think I am correct in saying that both the 36th Ulster Division and the 17th Irish Division fought side by side for the first time during the assault on the Messines ridge by the British Army in June 1917.
Brothers indeed!!
JimComment
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Completely false and a well known untruth these days. Plenty written about this on forums such as uboat.net and axis history forum.Originally posted by Top Buzzer View Post
MarkComment
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'Despite what you may have heard from from second or third generation Paddy, both countries have been closely linked for over 800 years and despite the messy war of independence, both countries and their peoples have always been mutually respectful of each other."
well all my grand paraents and there friends who were there during ww1 and onwards did tell me that there were a quite a number of people they knew who had no love for the British as they suffered both in the Easter rising and the war of independence so you cant really say that 99% of the population loved the British!and that 800 years of history wasnt always what you would call pleasant to the local irish population ESPECIALLY during the famine and if you were catholic in the 18th/19th centuries etc! as for Eamon DeValera and hitlers death sure just look at the UN and the death of Kim Jong-il! they lowered the flags to half mast for his funeral!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39804481.../#.TwTtV1aUpLUComment
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An old friend from Dublin told me that German u-boats were secretly provisioned in Irish ports during the conflict.Comment
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