4 Squdaron's Mustang woes.

[Black Hornet]

four
pilots set out on a Ranger sortie. Two were forced to turn back,


Wg Cdr MacDonald (naturally) and Flt Lt Baker engaged on
a Lagoon, which was a coastal anti-shipping sortie. Unfortunately, MacDonald suffered engine problems;
he was prepared to bale out, but managed to make a forced landing at Coltishall.



on 20 May 1943,
Plt Off North reported engine problems whilst returning from a Lagoon of the island of Terschelling. He
attempted to bale out, but at low level his chances were minimal. The aircraft, AG579, ditched into
the sea and sank immediately.

both air and groundcrews did extremely well to keep up
the serviceability rate of the Mustang.

training accidents were still taking a toll, and Fg Off Fisher was reported missing on a
flight from East Moor to Edinburgh on the 19th. His aircraft was later found mostly buried in a bog
at Otterburn. Fisher did not survive the crash.

Once again the spectre of the training accident raised its head on the 10th; Fg Off Thwaites
crashed near Burwell in AG486 and was killed. However, training continued apace.


The following month was relatively quiet, broken only by a further move back to Odiham on the
6th and a brace of aircraft written off in training accidents

the final ops were flown with the Mustang; a Lagoon off the Dutch
coast carried out by Flt Lts Draper and Speares and Fg Offs Mobbs and Shute. Mobbs had to return
early due to engine problems, but otherwise this final sortie was uneventful, something which could
not be claimed of 4 Sqn's whole career with the Mustang.

http://www.rafjever.org/4squadhistory3.htm


Now I've heard of the Merlin engine P-51 probs, but not so much with the Allison, which begs the question, which was the buggier of the two?

[Hoss]

Now I've heard of the Merlin engine P-51 probs, but not so much with the Allison, which begs the question, which was the buggier of the two?

BH
All fighter arms had problems as designers pushed the limit of engine design in the '30s and particularly during W2.
Many of which regarding the Allison, the US recession got in the way coupled with if I remember it had no high altitude supercharger. The European theatre P-51 was at its best definitely with the US Packard built RR lump.

My Grandmother (God Bless) during W2 worked at the Manchester UK plant on RR lumps, with later much kidding from me including how many spark plugs she must of cross threaded or how many cups of tea she made for the men. I had to duck quick to avoid a clip round the ear. My Gran made aero lumps and Mum made bombs and bullets. What a female combo!!!

Anyway nowadays
All this is so easily available and well documented on Wiki and a pleasurable read for us mechanical nuts. Not like the old days with our heads buried in books!!
My personal favourite is the Griffin 'Spit' used as a V1 and German bomber interceptor.

Cheers
Eric

[Black Hornet]

Some more than others. P-47 had much less engine problems for example.

Merlin didn't realy get most of it's bugs/issues worked out til 1948.


.” Between 1948 and ’50, Rolls-Royce turned out the strongest and most durable Merlins ever for Canadair-built Douglas DC-4s known as Northstars. These 1,760-horsepower engines could pound away for hours without missing a beat, and they made use of every trick Rolls had learned about building durable V-12s. They are the gold standard, and if you want a racer, they are what you need.

http://www.airspacemag.com/flight-to...tml?c=y&page=2

[Black Hornet]

Some argue that allied fighter missions were generally longer than German ones,( hence more engine stress), bomber escort missions certainly were, and perhaps Rhubarbs also, but shelf life is shelf life, number of operational hours is the relevant thing, stress on motor wouldn't change much if one flew 20 1 hour missions vs 10 2 hour missions. Unless I'm wrong that is.

Glad this was such an interesting topic.

As to 4th Squadron, they were mostly cross channel Rhubarbs, low level seek & destroy. Racing Merlins use Allison connecting rods these days.

Early P-38's were very problematic, but it is claimed here the L model in March 1945 had only 8 aborts in 662 sorties. He doesn't state where he got that data though unfortunately. "Worst to 1st" it would seem for P-38 if he's correct.


The 428th Fighter-Bomber Squadron was equipped with the Lockheed P-38J and P-38L, based at Florennes. In March 1945 the squadron flew 662 sorties, with only eight aborts to all causes. Not a single P-38 crashed or crash-landed due to mechanical troubles. Average time aloft per mission was about 2 hours and 25 minutes. The 1.2% abort rate in March was a record low for the 428th; their overall wartime rate for early returns was about 4%, and about 6% overall for the entire group.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...99259&start=75

[DennyB]

Speaking of P-47 Thunderbolts, a man that knew that I collected militaria called me one day and said that he had some pilot's wings to give me, they had belonged to his wife's uncle.
I picked them up and inquired what his name was, they said Eugene Emmons. So I did a little research and found out that he was actually an Ace. He had died several years ago from consuming large amounts of adult beverages after returning from WWII so instead of keeping his wings, I got his picture and wrote up a summary of his aerial exploits, had it all mounted with his wings and it hangs in the historical society of his hometown now.
He had piloted a P-47 Thunderbolt mosting in the Mediterranian area but he did get up into Italy and Romania also.

[Black Hornet]

Radial engines less bug prone it is said.

“The round motors are probably more reliable than the V-12s,” Moja admits,
http://www.airspacemag.com/flight-to...tml?c=y&page=4

The German, American, and British V-12s are fairly similar in general, but Nixon says the complexity of the DB 601 is obvious. “The British and Americans did more in-the-field maintenance, whereas the Germans would just send the whole engine back to the factory. They could change the engine in a Messerschmitt in a little over an hour.” And that’s why you see World War II photos of shirtless, oil-covered GIs pulling cylinders and replacing pistons. The Germans left that work to men in white shopcoats.







Finland got used G-2's as I recall,( only 16 factory new 109s), & another factor in all this is number of times the same motor got rebuilt.


The other Messerschmitts landed at Helsinki on the 16th of May 1943. These planes were mainly used ones while the first 16 Messerschmitts were new. http://hkkk.fi/~yrjola/war/faf/mersu.html



Me 109 G-2/G-6:
- The first batch of Messerschmitts were in good shape, there were no bad accidents? "The first batch came directly from the factory. The second were used G-6's. The G-2 engine had no durability, it had to be changed even after only 30 hours. G-6 was better in that respect." - I wonder why? I'd imagine those made in '44 were poorer. "This was February '43, and they were G-2's. We got G-6's only later. The worst of them lasted only 30 hours. It was always guesswork if the engine would hold together. "
- Mauno Fräntilä, Finnish fighter ace. 5 1/2 victories. Source: Interview by Finnish Virtual Pilots Association: Chief Warrant Officer Mauno Fräntilä.



Me 109 G:
"The service intervals were: 12.5h, 25h and 50h. Later on the interval was increased to to 100h or to 110h providing that the engine had been running smoothly. "
-Esko Laiho, Finnish fighter pilot. Source: Hannu Valtonen, "Me 109 ja Saksan sotatalous" (Messerschmitt Bf 109 and the German war economy), ISBN 951-95688-7-5.Source: Hannu Valtonen, "Messerschmitt Bf 109 and the German war economy"
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/...s/109myths/#db

The later G-14, G-10 engines were more reliable than G-2, G6. Another factor is the quality of the ground mechanics. Lower grade fuel & less access to high grade alloys also worked against German engines.

[Black Hornet]

Edit button dissapeared. A bit on alloys & Packard Merlins.




The initial Packard modifications were done on this engine by changing the main
bearings from a copper lead alloy to a silver lead combination and featured indium
plating. This had been developed by General Motors' Pontiac Division to prevent
corrosion which was possible with lubricating oils that were used at that time. The
bearing coating also improved break-in and load carrying ability of the surface. British
engineering staff assigned to Packard were astonished at the suggestion but after tear
down inspections on rigidly tested engines were convinced the new design offered a
decided improvement.


Indium.
A soft, malleable, silvery-white metallic element found primarily in ores of zinc and tin, used as a plating over silver in making mirrors, in plating aircraft bearings, and in compounds for making transistors. Atomic number 49; atomic weight 114.82; melting point 156.61°C; boiling point 2,080°C; specific gravity 7.31; valence 1, 2, 3.



Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/indium#ixzz1cEy7dzS8

[Black Hornet]

In WWII flying safety took a back seat to combat. The AAF's worst accident rate was recorded by the A-36 Invader version of the P-51: a staggering 274 accidents per 100,000 flying hours. Next worst were the P-39 at 245, the P-40 at 188, and the P-38 at 139. All were Allison powered.

http://www.goall.com/article/world-war- ... r-war.html





video of flight in the Collings Foundation's fully dual-controlled P-51C Mustang out of Camarillo, California in May 2009.


What was surprising to me was just how hard you have to pull on the stick at times. The harder you crank the airplane around, the harder you have to pull. The trim changes are also very large and the rudder control is very stiff at all times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZaGzMPMxKg



Jet pilots view...

. Rapid full left stick at 15,000 feet and 210 kias (knots indicated airspeed)-305 mph, yielded a roll rate in the region of 90 degrees per second, much slower than I had expected. That's four seconds to do an aileron roll!

http://www.flyingmag.com/aircrafts/pist ... g?page=0,1

[Black Hornet]

P-51 H model.

. The ailerons were given a larger degree of movement, and the chord of the flaps and the ailerons were made equal.


http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/p51_12.html
Purple FangDB 605A-1 Posts: 601Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:22 pm



an article found in “Sport Aviation, June 1990”, when a fly-off was held between a P-47D-40 (Thunderbolt), a P-51D (Mustang), a F6F-5 (Hellcat), and a FG-1D (Corsair). These war birds were not flown at max power but were flown at military power. At 10,000 feet and rolling 360 degrees at 200 KIAS the aircraft had the following rankings, Corsair, Hellcat, Mustang, Thunderbolt. However, when the aircraft were tested doing a 180 degree roll with a 3 G load at 220 KIAS, the rankings went Thunderbolt, Corsair, Mustang, and Hellcat. Perhaps it was under G loads that made the P-47 look so good in the rolling plane.