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**VtwinVince** · 05-01-2011, 03:16 PM

Interesting anecdote which I hadn't read before. This is an early Channel encounter, before Galland gained his reputation, later during the BoB, so I would question the assertion that it was indeed him.

**Eric JB** · 05-01-2011, 07:50 PM

- June 22, 1940.
JG 26 began to move back to its permanent stations in Germany.

- June 30, 1940.
Nothing mentioned for that date : no claims, no casualties, just nothing.

Information taken from "The JG 26 War Diary, Volume one 1939-1942", by Donald Caldwell.

So at the end, that is was an encounter with Galland, is only a story.

yours friendly

Eric-Jan

**Black Hornet** · 05-02-2011, 11:36 PM

Not 'just a story' It was told by a pilot involved as opposed to rumor/gossip. & he got his data from radio Y service. It's true that Y service could have been in error, it is also true that they may not have been. Its certainly not an invented story either way.

"Later the Y Service which listened to all R/T prattle told me it was General Galland who had shot me down."

& I have a book with a story "written by" a Canadian Spit pilot who encountered a 109 near the channel in 41 & had a go with it, scissors & other moves, resulting in a draw. Amazed he was, thought it was an easy kill as he was best in his squadron. The next day he learned from "the radio" the pilot was Werner Molders. So this sort of thing was not unusual, radio data extrapolation for pilots.

Plus if it really were a 15 minute battle, a logical or fair assumption is that Galland's wingman was not present. Many pilots score kills never credited for lack of witnesses.

**Eric JB** · 05-03-2011, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by Black Hornet View Post

Not 'just a story' It was told by a pilot involved as opposed to rumor/gossip. & he got his data from radio Y service. It's true that Y service could have been in error, it is also true that they may not have been. Its certainly not an invented story either way.

"Later the Y Service which listened to all R/T prattle told me it was General Galland who had shot me down."

& I have a book with a story "written by" a Canadian Spit pilot who encountered a 109 near the channel in 41 & had a go with it, scissors & other moves, resulting in a draw. Amazed he was, thought it was an easy kill as he was best in his squadron. The next day he learned from "the radio" the pilot was Werner Molders. So this sort of thing was not unusual, radio data extrapolation for pilots.

Plus if it really were a 15 minute battle, a logical or fair assumption is that Galland's wingman was not present. Many pilots score kills never credited for lack of witnesses.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi B.H.,

That it was an encounter with Galland - was just a story !

I didn't say that the story was invented ! of course Donaldson did have his air-battle, but clearly not with Galland.

"Plus if it really were a 15 minute battle, a logical or fair assumption is that Galland's wingman was not present. Many pilots score kills never credited for lack of witnesses."

B.H........I checked the copies I have from the Abschuß and Verlust lists I have for Jagdgeschwader 26, copied from the Bundes Archive.
No victories or losses on June 30, 1940.

No idea what you are trying to tell us here, but you are clearly making up your own story now with what I marked in yellow, again you are coming up with Galland.

Are you interested in history, or are you changing history into your own invented version.

When Galland wasn't active that day - with or without his wingman - he wasn't able to shoot down Donaldson.

yours friendly

Eric-Jan

**Black Hornet** · 05-04-2011, 11:24 PM

Hmm, not sure what you're tryin to sell us here, no evidence he was inactive that day, ( you haven't as yet provided any). The Hurri landed in water, therefore no crash evidence available. I did state "rather clearly" the radio service could have been in error. & again, just because there is no kill accredited to Galland that day does not prove one did not occur that day. As I mentioned previously, many pilots do in fact shoot down airplanes that never get credited due to lack of witneses or evidence.

Not sure where you're going with the bizarre inferences there. They certainly are weird as regards trying to invent history & such. I certainly have no interest in such, & certainly participated in no such thing here. Thanks for sharing the weird conclusion & inference.

**VtwinVince** · 05-04-2011, 11:34 PM

I think Eric-Jan is trying to say that there is no proof that it was Galland, which is true. I have interviewed many pilots, both Axis and Allied, over the years, and they had many 'interesting' stories to tell, but you have to take these with the proverbial grain of salt. My uncle was CO of 9. JG3 during the BoB, and he told of how many comrades of his were convinced that they had shot down 'Spitfires', when in fact they were Hurricanes, or sometimes even Moranes during the battle for France. All pilots wanted to believe that their opponents were the great aces of the other side. As an aside, my uncle was a gruppenkommandeur under Moelders, and hated his guts, regarding him as a particularly arrogant fellow

**Black Hornet** · 05-04-2011, 11:48 PM

Misidentiication of aircarft is an easy/common occurrence. Donaldson does not strike one as being the sort to make up stories, he was an experienced airman & became the RAFs chief air combat instructor in 41. & he was shot down, not vice-versa. There would be nothing to gain from fabricating an elaborate tale about how one got shot down.

As to Galland, again simply pointing out he wasn't credited with a kill that day does not constitute proof he didn't fly that day.

& why would German radio make up a story about Galland? Doesn't add up.

He has no proof it wasn't Galland, yet states it as if fact, therefore tis he who is making the attempted history re-write to fit his desired outcome or comfort zone.

**Black Hornet** · 05-05-2011, 12:31 AM

Donaldson met Galland in person after the war & had words with him regarding the event also.

I met him in London recently and I still don’t think much of his conduct that day, for he must have known that my Hurricane was dead as far as fighting again, but he never stopped shooting.

After this encounter neither did I.”

http://www.151squadron.org.uk/

**Black Hornet** · 05-05-2011, 12:33 AM

Donaldson met Galland in person after the war & had words with him regarding the event also.

I met him in London recently and I still don’t think much of his conduct that day, for he must have known that my Hurricane was dead as far as fighting again, but he never stopped shooting.

After this encounter neither did I.”

http://www.151squadron.org.uk/

So I guess I didn't "clearly" make up my own story.

**JeremyJ** · 05-06-2011, 10:10 AM

..

Based on the documentation available to researchers I would have to agree that this was likely not Galland. BH as you noted the fact that Donaldson was downed is definitely without doubt.

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As Eric pointed out JG26 and in particular III./Jagdgeschwader 26, had by 30 June already been transferred back to <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region w:st="on"><ST1

Germany</ST1

</st1:country-region>. At the time of the move Galland was Geschwaderkommodore.
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Unfortunately I have not had an opportunity to look at LW victory claims for that day since that may shed some light on the downing of Donaldson. Certainly the claim coming from the German propaganda ministry can be looked upon with skepticism since their statements were not always truthful. This in my mind is reinforced by the fact that had this claim come through the channels of Jagdgeschwader 26, which it would have, it would have been credited to Galland as a victory or at minimum a probable. Don Caldwell who wrote the excellent two volume unit history of Jagdgeschwader 26 does not list a claim for Galland anywhere near this time frame. Since <st1:City w:st="on"><ST1

Caldwell</ST1

</st1:City> had access to Flugbucher and Leistungsbucher of Galland during his research at a minimum this would have been noted by Galland as a probable or inconclusive engagement. In the Flugbucher I have in my own collection this is the case where a/c downing can not be claimed or confirmed.
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An interesting case of the fog of war to be sure.
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Regards
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Jeremy<O

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**Tim Calvert** · 05-08-2011, 02:39 PM

BH,

Thanks for posting. A very interesting read. However, I agree with Eric and Jeremy. JG26 was out of range.

With all due respect to Donaldson, I think the story was slightly embellished for the newspapers.
I can't imagine standing on the wing of a Hurricane and watching the wing bend up due to fire. I'm sure the slipstream was at least 100 mph even with the thing slowed up. The power of air is very underestimated.
Not to mention as the wing bends up, there is a loss of lift on that side and the plane would roll that direction.

Also, the Y service told him General Galland shot him down, but Galland was only Hauptmann at that time.

I bet when he met Galland later and said "Hey, you shot me down!" Galland thought "Yeah, and 103 others!" and just went along with the conversation.

Thanks again for sharing!

**Eric JB** · 05-18-2011, 05:06 PM

BH did post the story on another Forum too.

http://atlantikpirat.proforums.org/v...hp?p=8142#8142

Even when he did have the replies that were given here.

I did post the replies on that other Forum.

And this is BH's reply to me:

"No invented history, just the story as Donaldson put it. Thanks for negative innuendo Eric JB.

Hurri landed in water, therefore no ground evidence. The fact that Galland had no claim for the day means little in the matter. Many kills go uncredited due to lack of either ground or air witness/evidence.

They met after the war & I don't imagine they talked about Cigars & Tennis. The fact that Donaldson didn't change his story after meeting Galland should be telling even to the casual observer.

As an asides, Galland often flew against orders & verbally stated, ( not officially claimed), he shot down 8 P-38s yet his record only shows 1. The point being that just because no report of the event bearing Galland's name can be found does not prove it did not occur. Possible it was some other pilot, but unlikely due to radio Y service report & the post war meeting of Donaldson & Galland.

I bet when he met Galland later and said "Hey, you shot me down!" Galland thought "Yeah, and 103 others!" and just went along with the conversation.

Now thats invented history!

at a minimum this would have been noted by Galland as a probable or inconclusive engagement.

I don't see why, the extra P-38's weren't mentioned. He would have had many other probable & inconclusive engagements. Why this one in particular would merit special attention & receive notation & others not doesn't pass the spectrum of logic."

at a minimum this would have been noted by Galland as a probable or inconclusive engagement.

I don't see why, the extra P-38's weren't mentioned. He would have had many other probable & inconclusive engagements. Why this one in particular would merit special attention & receive notation & others not doesn't pass the spectrum of logic."

Great to see that we have such a JG.26 and Galland specialist onboard here on WAF.

My reply there will be the same here.

"Thanks for negative innuendo Eric JB."

That is bull**** BH !

Thanks for being a stubborn dumb ... !

You still don't get it.

Galland wasn't active that day, JG.26 wasn't up in the air, JG.26 wasn't in that area at all as they were in GERMANY !

Not that hard copying stories from the internet, snipping and sticking - every child can do that.

Good luck with history !

EJ.

**Eric JB** · 05-18-2011, 05:28 PM

Black Hornet, BH., his comment.

26 being in Germany doesn't prove Galland was. He broke rules frequently. He could have easily stayed behind on another base. I'm not going to respond to your immature name calling other than to point out it is against the rules, & has no place on this or any other forum.

As to hard copying a story, I did provide link. It wasn't made up from some non-related site. http://www.151squadron.org.uk/

Obviously you have a beef with myself & a bias against Galland. If tossing irrelevant insults is your thing, I can think of several other forums you'd fit very well at.

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