My trip to Poland - Part II - Plaszow and Amon Göth's house

[101combatvet]

Well, that would be an easy shot for anyone including Ralph Fiennes.

[N.C. Wyeth]

Came across an on-line petition today, championing another effort to preserve the villa:

https://www.change.org/p/jacek-majchrowski-mayor-of-krakow-protect-the-house-from-schindler-s-list-make-it-a-recognised-site-of-holocaust-memory?source_location=minibar

[djpool]

When you talk about the movie you are certainly correct but it is not historically correct. Gravestones were never used as pavement, that's pure jewish propaganda.

I wont go into other insinuations displayed here because it would result that i get banned.

I think you may have wandered to this site by mistake. David Irvings site is here

http://www.fpp.co.uk/

Regards Jim

[N.C. Wyeth]

Progress . . .

This appears to be a more recent photo of the house - judging by the new [concrete] fence-line, windows, and paint samples applied to the exterior.

http://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/news/2017/04/12/ohio-states-new-energy-company-could-build-60.html

[N.C. Wyeth]

According to this article, a new Musuem will be brought to the site of Plaszow - and part of the Museum will be displayed in the "Grey House".

http://krakow.wyborcza.pl/krakow/7,44425,21882608,odkryto-fragmenty-macew-z-ktorych-w-kl-plaszow-budowano-drogi.html

As hard as tried, my Polish never got up to snuff . . . so here is what "Google Translate" makes of the article:



It's not a stage design for the "Schindler's List", and the real effects of the excavations. Fragments of matzevot, from which camps were built, as well as objects belonging to prisoners were discovered during archaeological excavations at the site of the former camp in Plaszow.

First non-invasive georadar surveys were performed. They pointed out fragments of former camp buildings: barracks, warehouses, yards, as well as five places, where the bodies of the murdered were most probably burned. In May this year in the former concentration camp KL Plaszow began earthworks,
which are to confirm what the radar pointed.

It began with a survey of the area where barracks for men were located. - It is one of the best preserved relics. Besides, these barracks were not built in the former Jewish cemetery, and archaeologists do not intervene in burial grounds, "explains Tomasz Owoc, director of the Laboratory of the Museum - Memorial Site of KL Plaszow (supervising the work of the future museum).

He reveals that objects belonging to prisoners, such as mugs, cutlery, keys, and relics of the camps built of tombstones, were found.

When at the end of 1942 the Germans decided to create a camp in Cracow in two Jewish cemeteries, they successively destroyed gravestones. The rubble was used to build buildings and to harden the camp paths - explains Tomasz
Owoc.

To this historical fact was the design of the "Schindler's List" - in the quarry of Lebanon, where a part of it was built, can still be found in the fragments of the road with the matzevot dumplings. But it's just filmmaking, the relics of real camps are being discovered only now.

The area is most authentic.

Spielberg's Hollywood movie is not the rule. The ghetto was located in Kazimierz, not in Podgorze, and the concentration camp in the Lebanon quarry, where in fact it was only a forced labor camp - claims Tomasz Owoc.

As possible, earthquakes will not be subjected to places where mass executions are likely to occur - they are treated as implied cemeteries.

Parallel to archaeological research, the future museum's script is being developed. Its assumptions will be presented in detail at the end of June.

For now it is known that the area of the camp itself is to remain as authentic as possible, while the exhibition space will be located in two buildings - the so-called. The Gray House, where the SS lodge was located, and the memorial building to be built on Kamienskiego Street. These objects will most likely exhibit objects that archaeologists now find. So far, the findings are stored in a safe place.

Much controversy. When the scenario of the new museum in Krakow - PL Plaszow Memorial Site will be discussed and accepted, the city will be able to commission a modification of the land development project that was selected in the competition in 2007. This concept, made by the Proxima group, has aroused much controversy. Ideas for highlighting barracks or building a footbridge.

The cost of setting up a new museum is estimated at 30 million z

[N.C. Wyeth]

Happened across some new photos this morning . . . offering an updated view on the restoration progress.

[N.C. Wyeth]

Looks like the proposed Memorial at Plaszow will be built after all . . .

http://krakow.wyborcza.pl/krakow/51,...51384.html?i=0


From the associated article [translation by Google]:


In the former camp there is an open-air exhibition with 19 boards: photos and prisoners' accounts tell about the history of this place.

The boards are big: four by two meters, some two-sided. - Each of them has the same construction: its base creates a historical picture, there is a short information in Polish and English, and - most importantly - a report taken from post-war testimonies of prisoners. We tried, as much as possible, to locate the boards in the places they refer to - says Marta Śmietana, co-author of the exhibition.

The charts show, among others residential barracks, places of execution, workshops, economic area. - These photographs were taken by Germans, camp officials or employees of companies operating in the camp. Our graphic artist Monika Bielak has extracted human figures or buildings from the background. Although the oppressiveness of the photograph is obvious, because we look with the eye of the occupant, there are people in the background - this is our story and they are the link between those times and those who will visit the exhibition now.
Marta Śmietana hopes that thanks to the exhibition's focus on a particular character, a bond of memory will be created. He adds that KL Plaszow is one of the best photographed camps, a collection of about 200 photographs has been preserved.

In the camp, the boards will stand until the creation of the Museum - Memorial Site of KL Plaszow. The first official guided tour of the exhibition will take place on November 19.

On the occasion of the opening of the open-air exhibition, items presented during archaeological research were also presented, which in the future will go to the permanent exhibition of the planned museum. - We managed to obtain nearly three thousand items. These are mainly enamelware, fragments of glass, personal belongings of prisoners, such as jewelery, scales and shells, structural elements of buildings, eg nails, work tools - says Kamil Karski, archaeologist from the Historical Museum.

The exhibition was created as part of a project worth 656,000. PLN, financed by the Ministry of Culture. The enterprise was also supported by the Kraków commune. Thanks to archaeological research, it was possible to identify, for example, fragments of former buildings: barracks, bakeries, warehouses, children's nurseries, a roll-out square or places of shooting and burning of bodies.

In a few years a new Krakow museum is to be created here. The script is now ready - the museum will consist of three elements: the camp site through which the tour will be run, the Gray House, where the individual fates of the prisoners will be presented, and the memorial building planned next to the Bonarka Gallery with an exhibition on the theme of the camp. For sure there will not be any reconstructions of, for example, barracks - important places will be shown in a more subtle way, although for now it is not yet known how.

[helmuthunter]

I think you may have wandered to this site by mistake. David Irvings site is here

http://www.fpp.co.uk/

Regards Jim

I did a holocaust site tour last year in Latvia and Poland for 2 weeks with him every day hoping that someone who has interviewed so many famous 3r people it would be insightful. The man is a bigot and a denier. And a creep to boot. Johnno.

[Manalishi]

That is certainly a very hot topic, argued seemingly everywhere . . . could he truly have been able to shoot into the camp from that balcony?

N.C. - Nice bit of on-site investigation! I visited the Płaszow camp in the fall of 1994. My interest was piqued after seeing 'Schindler's List' the previous fall.

It's been 24 years but my recollection is that the bulk of the camp was blocked by a low hill but that some of the camp was visible from the villa. Looking at a map I had at the time it seems the Appelplatz was also blocked by this hill.

Also I did look but did not see any headstones used as paving stones at the old entrance to the camp. But then again, didn't expect to see any, either.

Looking back it's hard to believe that so much suffering and death took place here as it looks like an overgrown farmer's pasture today, as you can tell from Gernika81's pictures.

Chris

[N.C. Wyeth]

N.C. - Nice bit of on-site investigation! I visited the Płaszow camp in the fall of 1994. My interest was piqued after seeing 'Schindler's List' the previous fall.

It's been 24 years but my recollection is that the bulk of the camp was blocked by a low hill but that some of the camp was visible from the villa. Looking at a map I had at the time it seems the Appelplatz was also blocked by this hill.

Also I did look but did not see any headstones used as paving stones at the old entrance to the camp. But then again, didn't expect to see any, either.

Looking back it's hard to believe that so much suffering and death took place here as it looks like an overgrown farmer's pasture today, as you can tell from Gernika81's pictures.

Chris

Chris - You are correct - from that Villa, many parts of the entire facility was not within view. It is much more overgrown/wooded today - and with a trained eye you can tell some the earth has been moved/overburdened, since the time the camp was abandoned. That hillside you mention, has a roughly-hewn "tunnel" that some of the prisoners were forced to create - and you can still find it today, albeit completely filled with garbage. But what some of those new photos from the exhibit will reveal [as some of the few I posted] - is that quite a large section of the prisoner compound [the one that was built on top of the cemetery, up on the hill behind where the Synagogue was located - before being blown up] was certainly visible from the Villa. I am convinced even some of the Appelplatz could have been viewed as well. You won't find any headstones there that were used for paving - to my knowledge, it has never been proven to have occurred at this facility. But what you can find - still today - are the [cast concrete/modern] "headstones" from the movie, over inside the old quarry. When I was there, these were not difficult to find. And Yes - I believe that place has been purposely left to overgrow all these years . . . and it's nice to see it finally receive some long-overdue attention.

[N.C. Wyeth]

What will be interesting to see, is if any of the still remaining SS-guard buildings will be identified and pointed out. If one walks up the road, past the "Grey House" - there are still three or four of these left out there in the overgrowth. We found the old Garage, Guard-house at the Main Entrance, a small power building, and what appeared to be a wash-house/restroom up that way. There are also a few original buildings from the facility out in the [still working?] quarry - as well as some interesting buildings out near what has been identified as a "crematorium" on some of those old maps. The ash-pits are still there too - and these can't be missed, once you are paying attention to the map. There is still quite a lot to be found there - but you really have to go looking for it. And hard to believe, that almost all the "locals" use it like a Park - apparently [?] unaware of what rests below there feet. We actually saw people tossing frisbee in what is pointed out on the map as a pit, loaded with ashes.

[carltiger]

And hard to believe, that almost all the "locals" use it like a Park - apparently [?] unaware of what rests below there feet. We actually saw people tossing frisbee in what is pointed out on the map as a pit, loaded with ashes.

Very true. During past visits when leading study groups around the site, I witnessed married couples having their wedding photographs taken at the site, along with countless other local visitors as mentioned above. The site is also home to various species of bird and flora that I believe, receive protection from the relevant authorities. That the site is finally being addressed in an appropriate manner is a fine thing.

[N.C. Wyeth]

Recently, a Polish website posted some updated information on all the new changes being made to this site. It is an interesting read, if you have time to work a translation . . . but even more so, are some of the recent photos. Someone has gone to the site and made some drone pics - and they help greatly, in offering the site a better perspective.

[N.C. Wyeth]

So it appears the Museum at Plaszow will become a reality after all. The City has purchased a small portion of the land at the former site of the KZ, along with the "Grey House" - with the intent of housing the exhibits within it. A small clipping from the article:

http://krakow.wyborcza.pl/krakow/7,4...eszkancow.html

Former camp in Płaszów: the plan for the creation of the museum, and the concerns of residents from the neighborhood
Angelika Pitoń
January 10, 2019 | 6:00
Płaszów

We do not want to be under the nose of the second Oświęcim, because here we are resting - said some inhabitants of the area where the German Nazi concentration camp in Płaszów was located, when this week they were presented with plans to create a museum in this place.

The plan looks like this: the area of the former camp is symbolically separated by pillars, and old paths - Bergstrasse, Industrie Strasse, Autoreparatur Strasse, Hauptstrasse, SS-strasse and the assembly square - reconstructed. Recognizable and the main point of the museum was decided to make the Gray House, which housed a prisoner and torture chamber. It is the only preserved historical object.

Visitors (the city expects even half a million people a year) will be able to enter the interior of the Gray House, see the exhibition there, as well as the place of execution. There will be no reconstruction of, for example, barracks - instead of them there will be photos, preserved relics. The history of the camp and the Krakow ghetto operating in the city is to be presented in an underground memorial - specially built just next to the camp site. There is also a parking lot for coaches at ul. Kamieńskiego. Entrance to the former camp will be free. You have to pay for visiting the exhibition and guide.