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My trip to Poland - Part II - Plaszow and Amon Göth's house

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    #46
    Some very recent photographs of the Villa - taken by my buddy, Geoff Walden [who always manages to leave me exceedingly jealous, for being able to visit and take photographs of so many fascinating and provocative sites, all across Europe ] . . . Looks like the renovation is moving along quite nicely - and if rumor proves true, the local inhabitants might have some new neighbors moving in, before the year is out . . .
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      #47
      I think it will certainly be less easy to recognize . . .

      Came across a couple of photos from August, offering an updated view on some of the recent changes being made . . .
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        #48
        Originally posted by Gernika81 View Post
        Amon Göth's house's balcony. You can see the famous pic of the Lagerkommandant holding the rifle and shooting from his balcony at the inmates of the camp. Now, the villa is a private property.


        See the famous pic of him shooting at inmates?? He's not shooting at anything in that picture! Talk facts or not at all man. Utter nonsense.
        Last edited by praubal; 10-28-2016, 08:21 PM.

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          #49
          Originally posted by praubal View Post
          See the famous pic of him shooting at inmates?? He's not shooting at anything in that picture! Talk facts or not at all man. Utter nonsense.
          That is certainly a very hot topic, argued seemingly everywhere . . . could he truly have been able to shoot into the camp from that balcony?

          Honestly, I cannot say for certain - as, fortunately, I was not there at that time. What I can tell you, is that when I was there last year, I did spend some time walking that space . . . and asking myself the very same question. I will admit - after looking on a map, viewing the region via Google-Earth, studying the layout of the camp, and browsing through all the various conversations across the World-Wide Web - I remained quite dubious to the thought, prior to my visit. Funny thing is, after making that journey - and taking the time to stand and reconnoiter my location, relative to both of the locales in question - I walked away believing it may have been possible. Seeing the lay-of-the-land in person . . . and considering the way the surrounding hillside rolls in relation to that balcony - I am convinced it may have been possible to see the camp from that balcony . . . that is, assuming the landscape has not changed much over the years. To actually acquire an effective line-of-sight on someone that would have been in the camp [or, at least where the remnants of the reputed Appellplatz is today, or - especially so - where the tombstone remnants are located] I am convinced it was certainly possible - at least from the elevation of that balcony. So . . . when I see someone questioning the possibility today, I have to ask myself - has that person really taken the time to go to the site, and consider the same possibility for themselves?

          Of course, I could be proven wrong - and that would be alright . . . as I too would be quite pleased to know for a fact that such an atrocity really did or did not occur - and would be even more pleased to put the argument concretely to rest.
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          Last edited by N.C. Wyeth; 10-28-2016, 11:53 PM.

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            #50
            Despite the rise in the ground, it would have been possible to target areas of the former camp grounds. However, one can only see this when walking the ground...for it is then, and only then, that a true perspective can be obtained.

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              #51
              Originally posted by carltiger View Post
              Despite the rise in the ground, it would have been possible to target areas of the former camp grounds. However, one can only see this when walking the ground...for it is then, and only then, that a true perspective can be obtained.
              Thanks, Carl - good to know someone else felt that way, after visiting the site.

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                #52
                Some recent news, regarding the "Villa":

                http://www.timesofisrael.com/notorious-nazis-house-of-horrors-to-become-a-luxury-villa/

                Apparently, the restoration is moving along, quite well . . .

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                  #53
                  Thanks for the update, Brad!

                  I wonder what the house looks like now ... not like that photo in the article, for sure. When I saw it last year, the back was already considerably changed, with sections of the walls gone, windows added, balcony railing gone, etc.

                  Geoff

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                    #54
                    Hey Bud!

                    Originally posted by Geoff Walden View Post
                    Thanks for the update, Brad!

                    I wonder what the house looks like now ... not like that photo in the article, for sure. When I saw it last year, the back was already considerably changed, with sections of the walls gone, windows added, balcony railing gone, etc.

                    Geoff
                    Wow. After hearing that, I wonder too - what that place looks like now. Anyone out there have an updated photo or two?

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                      #55
                      Originally posted by N.C. Wyeth View Post
                      That is certainly a very hot topic, argued seemingly everywhere . . . could he truly have been able to shoot into the camp from that balcony?

                      Honestly, I cannot say for certain - as, fortunately, I was not there at that time. What I can tell you, is that when I was there last year, I did spend some time walking that space . . . and asking myself the very same question. I will admit - after looking on a map, viewing the region via Google-Earth, studying the layout of the camp, and browsing through all the various conversations across the World-Wide Web - I remained quite dubious to the thought, prior to my visit. Funny thing is, after making that journey - and taking the time to stand and reconnoiter my location, relative to both of the locales in question - I walked away believing it may have been possible. Seeing the lay-of-the-land in person . . . and considering the way the surrounding hillside rolls in relation to that balcony - I am convinced it may have been possible to see the camp from that balcony . . . that is, assuming the landscape has not changed much over the years. To actually acquire an effective line-of-sight on someone that would have been in the camp [or, at least where the remnants of the reputed Appellplatz is today, or - especially so - where the tombstone remnants are located] I am convinced it was certainly possible - at least from the elevation of that balcony. So . . . when I see someone questioning the possibility today, I have to ask myself - has that person really taken the time to go to the site, and consider the same possibility for themselves?

                      Of course, I could be proven wrong - and that would be alright . . . as I too would be quite pleased to know for a fact that such an atrocity really did or did not occur - and would be even more pleased to put the argument concretely to rest.

                      Interesting thread, and I do think your judgement would be superior since you have obviously devoted a fair amount of time to research this place.

                      Fact remains though that OP is guilty of shameless hyperbole.

                      He said "You can see the famous pic of the Lagerkommandant holding the rifle and shooting from his balcony at the inmates of the camp"

                      The weapon is clearly shouldered, he is not aiming or shooting at anything. Might have had the gun to shoot pheasants or target practice, very tough to infer that he was targeting inmates from that pic - And your 1st hand evaluation seems to be, while it might have been possible, not very likely.

                      Am quite sure there is no shortage of people claimed to be shot at by him, but is this pic pretty much the sole basis for these claims ?

                      I personally do not care to listen to excuses for Nazis, don't like to see it go too far the other way either.

                      edit: Is this a still from a movie clip ? I seem to recall seeing a clip of him, possibly with a rifle ,, And with little boys [his sons?] running around.

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                        #56
                        Originally posted by praubal View Post
                        See the famous pic of him shooting at inmates?? He's not shooting at anything in that picture! Talk facts or not at all man. Utter nonsense.
                        Probably more propaganda by that darned war mongering Churchill!

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                          #57
                          We're all free to form our own opinions . . .

                          Like I said, "eldewaff" - I didn't live during that time, and have no personal experience to confirm the incident[s]. My only point is to say - that if Amon wanted to take a few pot-shots from that balcony, I am convinced he certainly had the ability to do so.

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                            #58
                            I never had my doubts, but it is Hollywood. Interesting how Ralph uses a scope while Amon uses iron sights. I'm wondering what the distance was to the camp, any idea?

                            Originally posted by N.C. Wyeth View Post
                            That is certainly a very hot topic, argued seemingly everywhere . . . could he truly have been able to shoot into the camp from that balcony?

                            Honestly, I cannot say for certain - as, fortunately, I was not there at that time. What I can tell you, is that when I was there last year, I did spend some time walking that space . . . and asking myself the very same question. I will admit - after looking on a map, viewing the region via Google-Earth, studying the layout of the camp, and browsing through all the various conversations across the World-Wide Web - I remained quite dubious to the thought, prior to my visit. Funny thing is, after making that journey - and taking the time to stand and reconnoiter my location, relative to both of the locales in question - I walked away believing it may have been possible. Seeing the lay-of-the-land in person . . . and considering the way the surrounding hillside rolls in relation to that balcony - I am convinced it may have been possible to see the camp from that balcony . . . that is, assuming the landscape has not changed much over the years. To actually acquire an effective line-of-sight on someone that would have been in the camp [or, at least where the remnants of the reputed Appellplatz is today, or - especially so - where the tombstone remnants are located] I am convinced it was certainly possible - at least from the elevation of that balcony. So . . . when I see someone questioning the possibility today, I have to ask myself - has that person really taken the time to go to the site, and consider the same possibility for themselves?

                            Of course, I could be proven wrong - and that would be alright . . . as I too would be quite pleased to know for a fact that such an atrocity really did or did not occur - and would be even more pleased to put the argument concretely to rest.

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                              #59
                              It's not that far ... 250-300 meters from the balcony to the roll call square, wouldn't you say, Brad? Other parts of the camp were even closer.

                              Comment

                                #60
                                Originally posted by Geoff Walden View Post
                                It's not that far ... 250-300 meters from the balcony to the roll call square, wouldn't you say, Brad? Other parts of the camp were even closer.
                                Yeah - I would say so. Here is a photo of the map one can find at the site . . . I have added a red circle, and red line - to indicate the direction one would view, from that balcony to the Appellplatz. As you say, many other parts of the camp could be viewed from that balcony - so focusing on the Appellplatz alone, may be rather narrow-sighted.

                                What we all tend to forget, is that the lay-of-the-land at that time was much different than it is today. There is a low [but very overgrown] hillside nearby that house today - one that some people seem to think would block the view from the camp. But even when I was standing in the rear yard, I could see some of the old cemetery - the one where [some of] the prisoner barracks were located . . . which, in looking in the same direction, were just beyond the Appellplatz. And doing this, I wasn't even on the balcony!

                                If one were to go to the site today - and spend some time considering the lay-of-the-land - I don't doubt that person would come to the same conclusion. And once you start looking at the old photos of the building, it becomes all the more certain - that balcony had a rather significant view of the compound. After all - what we tend to overlook the most - is that it was well within the borders of the compound itself.
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