Bastogne and Foy, March 2009

[PerMilitaria]

Great photos! Makes me wanna go back to Belgium...

[DonC]

Eric, the Königstiger had about a third of it's barrel shot off and replaced by a Panther barrel and muzzle break. I believe the other two (Panthers) either broke down or were abandoned due to lack of fuel or retreat. The Houfallize Panther wound up upside down in the river before it was moved to it's present location - I don't know if it missed the turn or was pushed over by American engineers to clear the roadway.

Bayou, I purposaefully did not visit any of the museums so I could see as much of the battlefield as possible.

Don

[VtwinVince]

Very interesting. Of course, there is little evidence that a "massacre" took place at Malmedy, but of course the story persists. There are, however, numerous documented cases of Allied massacres of German personnel. And let's not forget that it was Allied commanders, not German, who specifically gave orders to execute POW's, in this case Waffen-SS and Fallschirmjaeger. Maybe one day mythology about the last war will stop. And sorry to hijack your thread.

[Gary Jucha]

Best

Fantastic photo's !!!!!



Vince,

Do something positive ! .. if you feel that strongly, and you know what you are doing is right !

1) Lobby the Belgian Government with all of the fresh evidence you have personally uncovered.
2) Go to Belgium, to the Ardennes, find the local Mayors of the towns, tell them you have set up a charity to fund memorials to the SS who fought in the Ardennes.
3) Go on Canadian TV and launch a charity appeal for money to fund a SS memorial at Malmedy.

Here are some helpful addresses where you can start.

Please keep us up to date with your progress ..

__________________________________________________ _____

Embassy of Belgium in Ottawa, Canada

Constitution Square, 360 Albert Street, 8th Floor, Suite 820
K1R 7X7
Ottawa
Ontario
Canada
Phone:
+1-613-236-7267
+1-613-236-7268
+1-613-769-8335
Fax:
+1-613-236-7882
Email:
Ottawa@diplobel.org
Website URL:
www.diplomatie.be/ottawa

View on Map

Consulate of Belgium in Edmonton, Canada

107, 4990 - 92nd Avenue
T6B 2V4
Edmonton
Alberta
Canada
Phone:
+1-780-496-9565
Fax:
+1-780-466-2832
Email:
georgederappard@shaw.ca

View on Map

Consulate of Belgium in Halifax, Canada

71 Thornhill Drive, Unit 2
B3B 1R9-NS
Dartmouth
Nova Scotia
Canada
Phone:
+1-902-468-1030
Fax:
+1-902-468-1827
Email:
patlprestige@aol.com

View on Map

Daffy Duck Club.
C/O Castle Greyskull
18 Uber Mench Strasse
Teutonville
Valhalla.
Prussia. SS-1933


Consulate General of Belgium in Montreal, Canada

Bd de Maisonneuve Ouest, 999, Suite 850
H3A-3L4
Montréal
Quebec
Canada
Phone:
+1-514-849-7394
Fax:
+1-514-844-3170
Email:
Montreal@diplobel.org
Website URL:
www.diplomatie.be/montreal

View on Map

Consulate of Belgium in Toronto, Canada

Bloor Street West, 2, Suite 2006
M4W 3E2
Toronto
Ontario
Canada
Phone:
+1-416-944-1422
+1-416-944-1423
Fax:
+1-416-944-1421
Email:
toronto@diplobel.org
Website URL:
www.diplobel.org/toronto

View on Map

Consulate of Belgium in Vancouver, Canada

2515 Alma Street
V6R 3R8
Vancouver
British Columbia
Canada
Phone:
+1-604-684-6838
Fax:
+1-604-684-0371
Email:
hdeprez@notaries.bc.ca
consubelbc@telus.net

View on Map

[Eric JB]

Very interesting. Of course, there is little evidence that a "massacre" took place at Malmedy, but of course the story persists. There are, however, numerous documented cases of Allied massacres of German personnel. And let's not forget that it was Allied commanders, not German, who specifically gave orders to execute POW's, in this case Waffen-SS and Fallschirmjaeger. Maybe one day mythology about the last war will stop. And sorry to hijack your thread.

Vince,

maybe you missed some books/publications/reports.......or you only read what fits your "historical" point of view.

To mention a couple:
France 1940 Totenkopf Div.
France 1944 Hitlerjügend Div.
And what to think of Russian POWs.



yours friendly

Eric-Jan


Don, thank you for the photos !

[DonC]

Well, the winners write it and the losers bite it, as they say. I have always felt that "atrocity" is a hard thing to pin down when the bullets are flying. 11 African-American soldiers were also gunned down by the SS at Wereth, but hardly anyone knows that.

Don

[Richard T]

Hello,

Don, With all the reading on the Bulge I've done I had never heard about the Wereth 11. Found this, an interesting read:
http://www.wereth.org/historical.new.htm

Best to all,
Richard

[Gary Jucha]

Wow

Don,
That takes some reading .... and should be read by all !

Richard .. thanks for posting the link ...



Gary J.

Hello,

Don, With all the reading on the Bulge I've done I had never heard about the Wereth 11. Found this, an interesting read:
http://www.wereth.org/historical.new.htm

Best to all,
Richard

[Eric JB]

Richard,

Thank you for the Wereth 11 link.

yours friendly

Eric-Jan

[Jürg]

Very interesting. Of course, there is little evidence that a "massacre" took place at Malmedy, but of course the story persists. There are, however, numerous documented cases of Allied massacres of German personnel. And let's not forget that it was Allied commanders, not German, who specifically gave orders to execute POW's, in this case Waffen-SS and Fallschirmjaeger. Maybe one day mythology about the last war will stop. And sorry to hijack your thread.

Vince,

well I am really open minded to see both sides of the war and toured the Ardennes many times. I read Peipers account in Agtes book on that event and I interviewed some guys in the Elseborn Museum. The exact circumstances have never been brought to daylight, what exactly happend there, but the shooting took place - thats a fact. To say that at the Baugnez crossroad was no shooting/massacre is just not true!

Have you never heard of the Massacre in Stavelot where the Waffen-SS murdered women and kids? What in Normandy Abbey d'Ardenne where the Hitleryouth murdered Canadien troops?

You really need to do more reading.

Juerg

[VtwinVince]

My, my, you people really get your feathers ruffled in a hurry. My point, concisely, is that we are constantly told of German atrocities, many of which did happen. I don't dispute that. The Malmedy incident, however, does not pass muster, and others have cast doubts on this story as well. It is a fact that Waffen-SS and Fallschirmjaeger POW's were ordered executed during the Bulge. And no, I don't need to do more reading, as some suggest. I've done plenty, as well as talking to vets, some of them Canadian, who have admitted to killing German POW's in cold blood. I think the crimes of all nations in the last war should be recounted, not solely those of the Germans. Of course, when you attempt this, as James Bacque did many years ago, you risk being ridiculed and ostracized. Some things never change, but people need to believe in fairy tales, such as the moral superiority of the victors in the last war.

[Gary Jucha]

Change

"moral superiority of the victors in the last war".[/quote]

"Moral superiority" ....
Glad to see that part is correct ....

And ... Change "victors" to "liberators" .... and the context will read historically accurate.

[VtwinVince]

See what I mean? Why don't you refute my arguments, instead of bleating such tired old slogans? I guess that's asking too much of people.

[Gran Sasso]

I believe the other two (Panthers) either broke down or were abandoned due to lack of fuel or retreat. The Houfallize Panther wound up upside down in the river before it was moved to it's present location

The Grand Menil "Panther" received a still clearly to see Bazooka shot on the left side, killing the crew.

[Thorsten B.]

My, my, you people really get your feathers ruffled in a hurry. My point, concisely, is that we are constantly told of German atrocities, many of which did happen. I don't dispute that. The Malmedy incident, however, does not pass muster, and others have cast doubts on this story as well. It is a fact that Waffen-SS and Fallschirmjaeger POW's were ordered executed during the Bulge. And no, I don't need to do more reading, as some suggest. I've done plenty, as well as talking to vets, some of them Canadian, who have admitted to killing German POW's in cold blood. I think the crimes of all nations in the last war should be recounted, not solely those of the Germans. Of course, when you attempt this, as James Bacque did many years ago, you risk being ridiculed and ostracized. Some things never change, but people need to believe in fairy tales, such as the moral superiority of the victors in the last war.

Well said.

Oh, and please let´s count in on allied side about 200 killed german POW´s in the district of Paderborn, Büren, Höxter and Warburg - the youngest was 16.