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**-Ray-** · 07-28-2012, 11:05 AM

Originally posted by blinky View Post

That's why I said not "politcal" awards of the MOH.

With all due respect, I have read before somewhere that BG Teddy Roosevelt was awarded his MOH in this manner at Utah Beach, since there were hundreds of others there as well with the same exposure?

What did he do really, take out multiply bunkers single handedly or inflict exccess casulatlies of enemy troops that would compare to a private Soldier.

I won't knock any WW II veteran even if they died of a heart attack, but just curious other than picking up a book or independant online reseach for answers. Any opinions?

-Ray-

**blinky** · 07-28-2012, 11:31 AM

That's always been a tough one. If his name wasn't "Roosevelt" but he was still a BG and was involved in the same action would he have been awarded the medal? I keep coming back to the answer of "maybe." He does earn a lot of credit in that he kept pushing to be allowed to join the first wave to hit the beach and while it does appear that he led men forward and moved around from group to group pushing them forward I've heard some stories that much of that was a bit exaggerated in order to justify the MOH. It does seem that he did, as senior officer on the beach, take command and control and really did help things go much smoother than they might have gone otherwise.
Heck, in some ways volunteering for a beach landing while dealing with arthritis should qualify him for the MOH ('cause arthritis is a major BITCH!).
I think he had been nominated for the DSC but it was upgraded some where higher in the chain of command......which smacks of "politics" but yeah, this one is tricky in my humble opinion.

I've always liked T.R. Jr. so I am probably a bit biased and have to admit that my personal feeling probably shadow my opinion

**Kelly w** · 07-28-2012, 01:24 PM

A debate is fine, however a betting man would go for the 50 rather then the 10-15.

Has any non military member seen a .50 cal in real? They are nasty. I have a .50 relic from Omaha beach [please don't tell me there was no .50 cal on omaha?] I don't think many were wounded out of that 50. I'll dig that thing out and post a pic.

**blinky** · 07-28-2012, 02:15 PM

Most people, when being shot at by an M2, will stay behind cover or advance only when not being fired upon. Even Germans are generally wise enough not to stand up when an M2 is aimed in their direction.

While hiding behind a rock or tank however, the .50 slug upon hitting said hard surface may either break apart or cause pieces of rock/tank/comrade to break free at a very high rate of speed causing damage to nice pink flesh in the vicinity.

Also, it wasn't made clear in the citation, but as I read it and already mentioned, many of those casaulties may have been caused by artillery fire rather than by the .50.

In the end it doesn't matter. The MOH wasn't awarded for how many Germans he killed but how he was responsible for holding off an attack.

Can everyone at least agree he did deserve the MOH?

**Kelly w** · 07-31-2012, 05:54 AM

Here's the .50 cal. plus reg rifle USA and German slugs.

Like I was saying, not to many of that 50 Murphy shot survived hits with that nasty thing.

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IMG_2269.jpg (65.3 KB, 90 views)

**blinky** · 07-31-2012, 08:38 AM

**Kelly w** · 07-31-2012, 12:33 PM

Ok I get it. Time to sleep old thread

**Jürg** · 08-17-2012, 06:37 AM

Originally posted by Jean-Loup View Post

"When you do not produce "sources" to back up your claims it's makes your "evidence" seem suspect, that's all I'm saying. It sounds like it's more your opinion, which is fine if it's just that, your opinion."

It is my opinion, based on numerous factual and indisputable examples from August 1944 that I have investigated in great detail in southern France, and that will be in the upcoming book I am trying to get published. So for my sources, you will have to be a bit more patient.
My opinion is also based on what I have been told by veterans numerous times, including by one veteran who wrote a citation for a DSC for one of his buddies.

I know MOH's were investigated quite seriously, but attributing specific numbers of KIA's to a particular person in battlefield conditions would be almost impossible even with a full forensic style investigation.
Food for thought:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/militar...nor/51961434/1

Jürg, I for one would be very interested to know what you can find out from the German side.

Unfortunately there are no specific casualty figures on the Gemran side. However, one supporting unit of the assault where Jagdpanters of the schwere Panzerjaeger-Abteilung 654. Also this outfit had casualties to report such a the driver of a tank who got his head shot off!

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