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    #16
    Originally posted by Kelly w View Post
    Reports are anywhere from 50 -240. If you count dead by M1 carbine, 50 cal, artillery strikes he called in and prisoners of war, it's far more then 10-15. Plus after all that he led a counterstrike to clear all remaining Germans from the area.
    From what I gather there was a company of armor supported by a battalion of infantry advancing across fairly open terrain. If that is in fact the case, the artillery would have been devastating alone but with Murphy also firing a .50 cal, it would have been quite possible to amass the 85 dead that I understand was the body count.

    The line used in the movie where the artillery fire direction radio operator asked Murphy "Aren't the Germans getting awful close to your position?" and Murphy replied "Hold the phone and I will let you talk to one." was actually true, not Hollywood hype. This spoke volumes to his fearlessness that some former comrades spoke of.

    Comment

      #17
      "Sounds like someone is doubting the deeds described in the MOH citation........"

      Yes, that would be me, because I have had the chance to compare a large number of medal citations with other sources of info, and the number of dead is systematicaly exagerated, often 2 or 3 times if not more. I dont think any serious historian would think of accepting medal citations (regardless of nationality) as a factual source of information.

      They surely found many dead in the area, but were all of them killed by Murphy?
      I would like to know what the German reports from that area would have to say about that day.

      JL

      Comment

        #18
        240 is exagerated. 10-15 is just nonsense. Murphy told the remaining men to retreat to the woods out of site possibly. However one Officer stayed with him to witness the event.

        His words. After he ordered his men to retreat "The next thing I saw was the bravest thing I saw any soldier do. He got on the back of the burning M10 and fired at the advancing troops. Even called in artillery on his own position"

        The German reports would be, we got our %$& kicked out there. They did not know it was one lone guy on a .50 cal.

        Jean I love your stuff on WAF, but please not this.
        Last edited by Kelly w; 07-25-2012, 01:44 PM.

        Comment

          #19
          "Yes, that would be me, because I have had the chance to compare a large number of medal citations with other sources of info, and the number of dead is systematicaly exagerated, often 2 or 3 times if not more. I dont think any serious historian would think of accepting medal citations (regardless of nationality) as a factual source of information."

          That's quite a leap, I've NEVER heard of anyone putting into question the deeds of MOH recipients in such a dramatic fashion. Where did you "acquire" these facts of yours? Please include the articles where facts and figures were "systematically exaggerated".

          Has anyone else heard of MOH, VC, or KC awards being "systematically exagerated"????

          Mike

          Comment

            #20
            "That's quite a leap, I've NEVER heard of anyone putting into question the deeds of MOH recipients in such a dramatic fashion. Where did you "acquire" these facts of yours? Please include the articles where facts and figures were "systematically exaggerated"."


            You can buy my book about the Champagne Campaign when it comes out, there are several examples of vast exagerations, including two KC's, though no MOH as none were awarded in my area. I will not include anything specific here on the forum as I want my material, which demanded a lot of hard work, published in print first.

            I am not questioning the deeds, simply saying that the way they are described in the citations is usualy if not always exagerated, particularly concerning the numbers of casualties inflicted on the enemy.

            JL

            Comment

              #21
              The German outfit was among other things the schwere Panzerjaeger-Abteilung 654, which was to support a German infantry assault to the Bois de Riedwihr, which was launched around noon on January 26, 1945. So I have to check my sources to see if there are any casualtiy figures.
              Strength and Honour
              http://standwheretheyfought.jimdo.com/

              Comment

                #22
                Who says that the casualties inflicted on the enemy were exaggerated? I'm a "student of history" as well and have never read any respected or well known historian stating as fact that these citations were exaggerated, enemy casualties or otherwise.

                When you do not produce "sources" to back up your claims it's makes your "evidence" seem suspect, that's all I'm saying. It sounds like it's more your opinion, which is fine if it's just that, your opinion.

                Mike

                Originally posted by Jean-Loup View Post
                "That's quite a leap, I've NEVER heard of anyone putting into question the deeds of MOH recipients in such a dramatic fashion. Where did you "acquire" these facts of yours? Please include the articles where facts and figures were "systematically exaggerated"."


                You can buy my book about the Champagne Campaign when it comes out, there are several examples of vast exagerations, including two KC's, though no MOH as none were awarded in my area. I will not include anything specific here on the forum as I want my material, which demanded a lot of hard work, published in print first.

                I am not questioning the deeds, simply saying that the way they are described in the citations is usualy if not always exagerated, particularly concerning the numbers of casualties inflicted on the enemy.

                JL

                Comment

                  #23
                  Unlike most other awards the "certification" process for awarding the MOH is pretty darn strict (unless it's a "political" award). Apart from the nomination and witnessess, their is usually a board that investigates the claims and evidence. There have been a lot more men who were nominated for the MOH and were awarded lesser medals because evidence couldn't back up the claims and in several citations claims actually err on the side of caution and not on exaggeration; once a medal has been awarded they want to ensure someone won't come back later claiming the individual awarded the medal didn't actually deserve it.

                  Comment

                    #24
                    "When you do not produce "sources" to back up your claims it's makes your "evidence" seem suspect, that's all I'm saying. It sounds like it's more your opinion, which is fine if it's just that, your opinion."

                    It is my opinion, based on numerous factual and indisputable examples from August 1944 that I have investigated in great detail in southern France, and that will be in the upcoming book I am trying to get published. So for my sources, you will have to be a bit more patient.
                    My opinion is also based on what I have been told by veterans numerous times, including by one veteran who wrote a citation for a DSC for one of his buddies.

                    I know MOH's were investigated quite seriously, but attributing specific numbers of KIA's to a particular person in battlefield conditions would be almost impossible even with a full forensic style investigation.
                    Food for thought:
                    http://www.usatoday.com/news/militar...nor/51961434/1

                    Jürg, I for one would be very interested to know what you can find out from the German side.

                    Comment

                      #25
                      That's why I said not "politcal" awards of the MOH.

                      Comment

                        #26
                        "On an other topic, I would be curious to know how many german soldiers were exhumed from the area where Audie Murphy shot 50 of them. I wouldnt be surprised if actualy only 10 or 15 germans had been killed, not 50."

                        Actually, JL, that's a good point. In the citation it says nothing about him shooting (or killing) 50 Germans. From his citation:


                        His directing of artillery fire wiped out many of the enemy; he killed or wounded about 50.

                        Based on that it sounds more like he was credited with 50 German casualties (both killed and wounded). Also, that number takes into account casualties as a result of the artillery fire he called in, at least that's how I read it. It does say: "His deadly fire killed dozens of Germans" but dozens could mean 24, 36, 48, etc.; they give no specific number.
                        The 240 from Wikipedia could be construed as that supposed total he killed throughout the war.
                        I guess I'd rather go with the MOH citation rather than something on wiki which, of course, could very well be based on sources that exaggerated.
                        Last edited by blinky; 07-27-2012, 12:34 PM.

                        Comment

                          #27
                          Indeed, I just checked the official citation myself before reading your reply, and it does not say 50 killed, nor 250 killed, but 'only' 50 killed and wounded for the MOH action.
                          This would mean something like 15 to 20 killed, which is pretty much what the gestimation I had posted 2 years ago was, and which is a quite resonable number for the machine gunning and artillery fire....

                          So in the end we were having an argument over nothing it seems

                          JL

                          Comment

                            #28


                            But isn't that what the internet is all about?

                            Comment

                              #29
                              Opinions yes, Jean Just admit that your opinion of 10-15 dead is only downplaying the record of the greatest WW2 American hero and probably greatest of all WW2 military forces of any country, and is most likely incorrect based on all accounts.

                              Then we will put this thread back to sleep.

                              Comment

                                #30
                                "Jean Just admit that your opinion of 10-15 dead is only downplaying the record of the greatest WW2 American hero and probably greatest of all WW2 military forces of any country, and is most likely incorrect based on all accounts. "


                                No, it turns out that my opinion is not downplaying his record, but is actualy almost exactly in line with what the official MOH citation itself says, 50 killed or wounded.... Sorry, but it would seem that contrary to your opinion in post 11, killing approx 20 enemies is sufficiant to get great soldier a well deserved MOH (As did this man, who I interviewed for my book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melvin_E._Biddle ).

                                I did make a mistake: it is to have not immediately having refered to the official citation before posting in this thread and getting into a debate.

                                What exactly are your 'all accounts' that say I am incorrect? Is there any non US army source that you have consulted such as French civilian witness accounts, German military reports and casualty lists, the local cemetery register, etc? An event needs to be investigated from all angles available with a cool head. It is not because a soldier is the most decorated soldier of WWII that everything that has been said and written about him is true, factual or sacred; quite the opposite.

                                As for causing 250 killed in a single action, perhaps that is good for movie scenes such as this, but not for reality: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgbCusu37z4

                                JL

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