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Truly the end of an era. The last survivor of the July 20 plot is gone. Rest in Peace, brave soul. -
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Another NAZI sympathizer? You have got to be kidding me. Do you deny the Holocaust as well?Originally posted by joe88 View Post
How is he a traitor? Please, support your position now that you have decided to desecrate the remembrance thread of a man most consider a hero.Comment
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I am far to be a nazi sympathizer and I don't deny the Holocaust but to me a guy jumping over Normandy on the 6th of June or landing on Omaha beach is a real hero (or a SAS in Falouja) but saying that a guy is a hero because he gave some explosives for a bomb attack (which by the way didn't help to shorten the WW2)is a bit overrated.
PierreComment
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So acquiring and delivering British explosives to his fellow conspirators is not courageous enough? These were British explosives, not German. People tend to notice when things in little or no supply go missing. How about how he he took a 1000 of his men on a cavalry ride covering 120 miles in a little over a day to an airport in Russia. He and his men, it was planned, would then fly back to Germany to take part in Operation Valkyrie and the subsequent power struggle that would inevitably occur. None of his men were privy to the operation. Upon receiving notice of the failed attempt he had to lead his men again on the long and arduous journey back to their post raising nary a suspicion. If he was suspected in the slightest (see the list of executed), he would have shared his brother's fate. I don't know about you (well, I guess I do), but he is a surefire hero in my book.Originally posted by Pierre View PostLast edited by Paul Giva; 05-03-2008, 07:24 AM.Comment
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Pierre, you are of course right in a certain way. But we should not forget that it was an act of bravoury to attempt a murder on AH at that time...It was difficult to get so close to him, especially if youd did not belong to the "inner circle". We must not forget the strong social cohesion in the 3. Reich. Your own family could turn you in if you had opposite thoughts about the regime.Originally posted by Pierre View Post
Thinking about killing AH or negative talking could already be deadly. Remember the story about brother and sister Scholl ("Die Weisse Rose"). German (underground) resistance was almost impossible and a very very risky business.
Best
MartinComment
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Let us also remember that Philipp von Boeselager was also wounded five times and was decorated with the Knights Cross, in addition to the IC II, IC I, and the Honor Roll Clasp.but saying that a guy is a hero because he gave some explosives for a bomb attack (which by the way didn't help to shorten the WW2)is a bit overrated.
I don't think that his bravery, before or after the assassination attempt(s), is in question.
Paul, actually his brother Georg was killed in action on the Russian Front, albeit after returning from the Prussian area with his troops. I think he had been, as current lingo goes, been a "person of interest". But his KIA status precluded any further action. Additionally, his promotion and award of the KC w/OL came after his death and about a month after the failed 44 plot.If he was suspected in the slightest (see the list of executed), he would have shared his brother's fate.
AndrewLast edited by Huntzman; 05-03-2008, 10:03 AM.Comment
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Hi Huntzman,Originally posted by Huntzman View Post
Thanks for correcting me on that point. And you are right about Philipp, it is hard to question his courageousness.Comment
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No need to apologize. You are entitled to your opinion. I just wanted to understand why it was you felt the way you did.Originally posted by joe88 View PostComment
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Anyone prepared to take the risks to try that is most certainly a hero. Interestingly, if the plan had worked, i'm sure his and the other conspirators would be household names. The thing is, the fact that it didn't work changes nothing. The plots failure had nothing to do with lack of bravery or anything like thatOriginally posted by Paul Giva View PostComment
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The plot did not work exactly because of lack of bravery.
Yes, on one side, a group of heroic patriotic offciers tried to eliminate the dictator.
On the other side of the medal, seldom discussed for obviuos reasons, these people were all higher ranks and/or close to the dictator. They followed him for years and did what he wanted, took active part in the German assault on Europe, themselves planned different parts of the nazi invasion on other countries. And suddenly, when the tides changed and the dream for a castle with endless lands in Russia faded, they at once realised he was a monster, he was taking the country to an abyss and etc. etc.... I think those things were clear to many schoolboys years earlier? In my book, a hero would be someone, who take a gun in 1939 and hide in the forests, refusing to serve in the invasion army or something like that. And someone who has important role in the AH Orchestra Big European Tour 1939 for years and changes position only at the bitter end of the Tour /breaking his oath and duty in the same time/, indeed could be called a traitor.
And as said in the first sentence, the plot did not work exacylt because of lack of bravery. These people were no heroes, not exactly ready to sacrifice themselves. Many ordinary soldiers gave their life willingly, to save a Comrade, two or five. And though pretending to be saving millions, noone of that group sacrificed himself. If it was all so idealistic, as usually described, Stauffenberg or somepone else could stand close, right infront of the Fuhrer and simply pull the wire from the bag. No way to miss! Guaranteed 100% success with nothing left to the Chance or Luck. But they did not plan sacrifices, they planned benefits. Indeed it was risky and they risked their lives /and lost/, but that was still gambling, not a sacrifice.Comment
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Theodor with all my respect for you, please try to understand their PRUSSIAN way of thinking and beeing before you start blaming these guys. Thanks!Originally posted by Theodor View Post
These sort of human was trained since hundreds of years to follow and not to think or ask!
Most were high rank officer and a lot have been awarded with KC or higher, seriously wounded twice. They had something most of the Germans never had a chance for, they came in positions where they were able to "understand" the way all will go. A long way.....
No normal guy ever got the informations these guys received over the years in staff.
They tried to start something new in 1942 (!), a revolution from the top, without the folk as help (which was still in "love" with the Führer)......a hard try, at least without a result.
They showed the bravery which was needed for the plan. It would have made no sense to blow up with the Führer. The group was too small and all members were needed for the time after.
Philipp von Boeselager, he rest in peace!Comment
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Originally posted by Theodor View Post
What you seemingly are failing to realize is that Operation Walküre was not intended to cease upon the assassination of Hitler. It was an elaborate plan to overthrow the NAZI government.
The men that were "not exactly ready to sacrifice themselves" had good reason not to. The plan hinged on the establishment of a new government. If they gave their lives up during the assassination attempt, what would Hitler's death have accomplished? The conspirators would be dead and Himmler, Goering or some other NAZI stooge would have assumed the role of Fuehrer.
Even if they were capable of bringing more men into the fold, thereby becoming expendable, it would just serve to increase the possibility of the plot's discovery. This is NAZI Germany we are talking about. A police state. Children denouncing parents, friends denouncing friends, neighbors denouncing neighbors, etcetera, etcetera. Each person brought into the fold served only to increase the likelihood of detection.Comment
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Gerd, please think twice before posting more nonsense about Prussians and their inability to think for themselves. This is a lot of crap, mostly the result of British propaganda over the years. In fact, it was Prussia that offered sanctuary to other racial groups, when they were persecuted by their countrymen, such as the Jacobites and Hugenots, to name but two. My father was East Prussian, and an artist and a pacifist. The sort of mindless stereotyping to which you seem to subscribe is nothing more than racism.Comment
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