Unsolved History...Red Baron

[peleliuexplorer]

Who watched the Military Channel that featured "Unsolved History" about who really shot down the Red Baron. Fascinating.

-Eric

[Adrian]

I think I saw this one or a similar programme in the UK, is it the one where they seemed to think it was a couple of guys on the ground with their Lee Enfields?

[peleliuexplorer]

I think I saw this one or a similar programme in the UK, is it the one where they seemed to think it was a couple of guys on the ground with their Lee Enfields?

Yes, or Lewis machine guns. Very interesting.

-Eric

[slayer]

Wasn't it some members of the Australian Army on the ground and at the time he was being pursued by a Canadian plane ?

I know the Australian war memorial in Canberra has parts of his plane there the tail section I think and some personal items from the wreckage.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Scott Powell]

Wasn't it some members of the Australian Army on the ground and at the time he was being pursued by a Canadian plane ?

I know the Australian war memorial in Canberra has parts of his plane there the tail section I think and some personal items from the wreckage.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

yes they do, i visted last year,and sought out this display in particular

[Bobwirtz]

I saw that several years ago. I thought it was done rather well. They gave credit to an Australian machine gunner on the ground... seems that all of the hits were scored from the ground and not the air. SOMETIMES they do SOMETHINGS well...

Bob

[RobNZ]

I worked with an australian whos grandfather was up a telegraph pole when the baron was being persued by the canadian biplane. He said his grandfather saw it happen and after the baron force-landed he went up to the aircraft and saw the baron had a bullet wound in one side of his waist and up diagonally exiting under his opposite armpit.
He also took a piece of fabric with the maltese cross from the plane as a souvenir which is now in an Australian War Museum.
This entry and exit suggests to me fire coming from the ground.

Rob

[Jean-Loup]

"He said his grandfather saw it happen and after the baron force-landed he went up to the aircraft and saw the baron had a bullet wound in one side of his waist and up diagonally exiting under his opposite armpit. "

I would like to see the original autopsy report, as I have read a letter written by May (the canadian who was being shot at by the red baron), and in it said the bullet came in from behind, and went through the heart.
Seeing the period report seems like the only way to know who is saying the truth. The fact that credit was officilay given to Canadian pilot Roy Brown shows that the autopsy information most likely confirmed the fact that the bullet was fired by Roy Brown.
Does anybody know if the original autopsy report is availlable anywhere?


JL

[chippler]

I have also read information that indicates an Australian vickers gunner on the grund fired the fatal shots. Perhaps the examiner came to the conclusion that it would sound more romantic and daring if the official report said he was shot down in a brave and hard-fought dog fight rather than by some gunner on the ground...

http://www.anzacs.net/who-killed-the-Red-Baron.htm

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/redbaron/theories.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manfred_von_Richthofen

- Chris

[Tora_Tora_Tora!]

Here his grave and where is located....

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg...r&GRid=9219064

[MauserKar98k]

Ray Brown got the credit, but it is now widely aknowledged that Cedric Popkin got him from the ground with his Vickers machine gun. It kind of irks me that Brown took the credit and never admitted that it probably wasn't him that shot down the Red Baron, even though it was proved that the Richthofen kept flying in a straight line, even after Brown's seconds-long diving attack on the Baron's plane. The Baron's plane only nosed up and crashed into the ground after Brown turned away.

[Jean-Loup]

80 years later it is hard to proove exactely what happened.
IMO it may be possible to find out if he was shot by Brown or by ground troops; but it is 100% impossible to know WHO on the ground may have shot him, with litteraly dozens of soldiers firing away at the red triplane.

"It kind of irks me that Brown took the credit and never admitted that it probably wasn't him that shot down the Red Baron, even though it was proved that the Richthofen kept flying in a straight line, even after Brown's seconds-long diving attack on the Baron's plane."

I dont think Brown ever took any particular credit. In the period report he wrote something like: "Fired on red triplane that then crashed". I also dont think there is any conclusive evidence to proove either version of the story...

Here is something to think about: do you honnestly think the Red Baron would have kept on flying in a straight line while being fired on if he wasnt already dead?

I remember reading an account of the incident by Brown where he said the Richtheofen turned around and saw Brown just as he shot him. This could explain why the deadly bullet seemed to come from below on the right side.
JL

[MauserKar98k]

...Here is something to think about: do you honnestly think the Red Baron would have kept on flying in a straight line while being fired on if he wasnt already dead?

I remember reading an account of the incident by Brown where he said the Richtheofen turned around and saw Brown just as he shot him. This could explain why the deadly bullet seemed to come from below on the right side.
JL

I agree that if he was being fired upon, it would seem highly unlikely that a seasoned combat ace like the Baron would not take some kind of evasive maneuvers, but one could infer that the Baron was just too busy trying to shoot down Wilfrid May, whom he had already chased all over the French countryside. I don't know if he kept flying in a straight line, per say, but as far as I know, eyewitnesses said that the didn't see any sign that Brown's attack had any effect on the red triplane. His plane was viewed to "nose-up" and quickly dive toward the ground, only after Brown had attack and turned away. One has to admire that even thought Richthofen was heavily wounded, he still managed to make his last landing.

It is also a large stretch, but he may not have even cared that he was being attacked by Brown. He was reported as not being himself during his final days. He had become fatalistic, convinced that his death was immanent, having suffered a severe head wound in July which supposedly changed his temperament, and could have possibly been suffering from cumulative combat stress. He also could have become so focused on shooting down May that he may not have even noticed Brown's split-second diving attack.

The fact is that Brown could not have killed von Richthofen because his attack doesn't meet the correct angle or fit within the correct time frame to have fired the fatal bullet that eventually killed the Red Baron. But then again, there is always doubt. Like you said JL, it is hard to prove exactly what happened.

No offense, but I don't see how the Baron turning around could make it seem like the fatal bullet in his side came from below and to the right when Brown attacked from above.

[Scott Powell]

I just finished reading an outstanding book by Norman Franks and Allen Bennet titled 'The Red Baron's Last Flight'. it analyzes the last flight bit by bit,using the testimony of many eye witnesses ,and examining the evidence. they felt that with all of the evidence Cedric Popkin brought him down.
i would reccomend this book quite highly to anyone with an interest in MVr's end.

as far as Brown, i think he really felt he had brought him down. the book details how he fired, turned away to avoid a coillison( losing sight of MVR and Wop May) and shortly thereafter saw the DR1 on the ground. a logical 2+2 =4 to Brown.
it's very poignant reading Brown's report of later seeing the body, he said it was fraigle and delicate,and he didnt feel like a victor.

[pzrwest]

I think this is one of those incidents that will never be solved. I saw a program where they used modern technolgy to re-create the incident and still left some doubt as to who actually fired the fatal shot.