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**Admiraal** · 01-23-2008, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by robertdmountfor View Post

Dont forget fighting was fanatical right until the end, and the people were behind their Fuhrer 100%.

No i disagree, especialy in the end of the war, not many fought for hitler.
But they had to, or else they would be shot.
They fought for there homes, familie's and their country.

Ofcourse there were enough fanatical people (most in the SS etc.), but even at the start of the war, most soldiers were not fanatical Nazi's.

**robertdmountfor** · 01-23-2008, 04:28 PM

Originally posted by Rick Admiraal View Post

No i disagree, especialy in the end of the war, not many fought for hitler.
But they had to, or else they would be shot.
They fought for there homes, familie's and their country.

Ofcourse there were enough fanatical people (most in the SS etc.), but even at the start of the war, most soldiers were not fanatical Nazi's.

Not true..... that is the common mis conception I believe. Perhaps under stalin's regime.

**BryanD** · 01-23-2008, 04:31 PM

I started out with the German things that 3 of my uncles brought back. They all brought back helmets, caps, uniforms, daggers, medals, pistols, etc. My grandfathers brought back pretty much the same kinds of stuff. The junk was War Trophy's. Hell it didn't have much of a value at all in the 50's when I was a kid. My dad brought home a Japanese helmet a Nambu pistol and a sword. They were trophy's taken from a defeated enemy.
As far as Goerings daughter is concerned she deserves nothing military that her father had. The only piece of art work he ever bought was proven to be a fake. Some superman.

The rest of it he stole. Humans have been dragging war trophy's home since war began. Trying to judge past practices by todays tiresome politically correct standards is silly. What my fathers and grandfathers generations brought home as the victors of WWI and WWII was theirs and subsequently ,in most part from my relatives, mine. I'll be damned if I am going to give anything up. I might sell them someday but I absolutely do not care about original owners or their heirs. They got whooped.

WE WON!!!!

**robertdmountfor** · 01-23-2008, 05:02 PM

Originally posted by BryanD View Post

I started out with the German things that 3 of my uncles brought back. They all brought back helmets, caps, uniforms, daggers, medals, pistols, etc. My grandfathers brought back pretty much the same kinds of stuff. The junk was War Trophy's. Hell it didn't have much of a value at all in the 50's when I was a kid. My dad brought home a Japanese helmet a Nambu pistol and a sword. They were trophy's taken from a defeated enemy.
As far as Goerings daughter is concerned she deserves nothing military that her father had. The only piece of art work he ever bought was proven to be a fake. Some superman.

The rest of it he stole. Humans have been dragging war trophy's home since war began. Trying to judge past practices by todays tiresome politically correct standards is silly. What my fathers and grandfathers generations brought home as the victors of WWI and WWII was theirs and subsequently ,in most part from my relatives, mine. I'll be damned if I am going to give anything up. I might sell them someday but I absolutely do not care about original owners or their heirs. They got whooped.

WE WON!!!!

I am talking about the big trophies that have huge value. not helmets. These bejewelled awards are not the rightful property of the US government. In the same vein, The state of Bavaria are all to happy to destroy the last vestiges of history, but boy, do they like the royalties from Mein Kampf! strange that...

**gew98** · 01-23-2008, 05:49 PM

Originally posted by robertdmountfor View Post

I am talking about the big trophies that have huge value. not helmets. These bejewelled awards are not the rightful property of the US government. In the same vein, The state of Bavaria are all to happy to destroy the last vestiges of history, but boy, do they like the royalties from Mein Kampf! strange that...

All is fair in love and war....... so many axis POW's were very danred lucky to be taken alive..... and medals and such on them....... fair game for the victors. That's life and SOP for every war I ever read about.

**HG_Lang** · 01-23-2008, 10:33 PM

Originally posted by robertdmountfor View Post

I think you mis-understand, Goerings daughter was 4 years old, so I dont think she advised too much on policy... Germany was a legitimate country that awarded its war heroes like any other. Whatever he did in his public role does not detract from the fact that he paid with his life and his family were robbed of what was rightfully theirs as his benefactors.
Howabout the PLM as an example, or all his other WW1 awards?

I'm very familiar with Hermann Göring's military, politcal, and personal life, so there was no misunderstanding and I stand behind my previous statements in regard to ownership of the baton and simular artifacts. It is unfortunate that the families of such individuals often bear the stigmas of their forebears and if this is the ultimate cause for the woman's troubles, then the intolerance of the German people of the post war era is to blame for this.

In regards to his Pour le Merite and WWI awards, they shouldn't have been stripped from him according to the Geneva Convention but it's fair to say that the statute of limitations has long run out. As I understand it, political awards do not meet the criteria for protection from confiscation. Likewise for private properties purchased by the Göring family with wealth attained through the misery of millions. This may seem a bit on the extreme, but I see it as akin to the idea of a serial killer shooting video of his victim's deaths who is then caught and executed and then many years down the road his children demanding the police to turn over the tapes to them so they can sell copies.

The bottom line is that Edda Göring played no role in her father's manifold crimes and should not bear the mark of them in his absence. At the same time, she should not benefit financially from then either.

Shane

**Jean-Loup** · 01-24-2008, 04:45 AM

"Dont forget fighting was fanatical right until the end, and the people were behind their Fuhrer 100%."

This is total BS. Towards the end of the war the Germans were surendering by the thousands on the western Front.
As an example, already in August 1944, the Germans put up a very half assed fight in southern France, with most units surrendering after they lost a few men. Nothing fanatical there...

JL

**BryanD** · 01-24-2008, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by Jean-Loup View Post

"Dont forget fighting was fanatical right until the end, and the people were behind their Fuhrer 100%."

This is total BS. Towards the end of the war the Germans were surendering by the thousands on the western Front.
As an example, already in August 1944, the Germans put up a very half assed fight in southern France, with most units surrendering after they lost a few men. Nothing fanatical there...

JL

Hell Jean Loup those were the famous German beer barrel divisions from southern Germany.

The outfits from around Munchen. they were so busy celebrating an early octoberfest they got caught with their pants down. ( had the drizzlin sh its from drinking to much beer for to long a time.)

They were all out in the road squirting little streams of crap into the dust competing to see who could copy Hitler's autograph the closest.

Next thing they knew there was the French resistance and allied troops all over them. Took their toilet paper and everything. They all got a case of red monkey butt from not wiping their butts.

Crap is very acidic and irratates the skin you know.

**Simon O.** · 01-24-2008, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by Jean-Loup View Post

"Dont forget fighting was fanatical right until the end, and the people were behind their Fuhrer 100%."

This is total BS. Towards the end of the war the Germans were surendering by the thousands on the western Front.
As an example, already in August 1944, the Germans put up a very half assed fight in southern France, with most units surrendering after they lost a few men. Nothing fanatical there...

JL

JL is right. You cannot make such sweeping generalisations. You should know that the wehrmacht, not just the SS was full of non-Germans. Many who had become instant Germans as their lands were annexed or invaded. Czechs, Poles, French (alsatians), Austrians, Danzigers all of them draughted whether they liked it or not.

From the Hague convention of 1899 and 1907

Art. 4.

Prisoners of war are in the power of the hostile Government, but not of the individuals or corps who capture them.
They must be humanely treated.
All their personal belongings, except arms, horses, and military papers, remain their property.

Article 6 from the 1929 Geneva convention

Art. 6. All personal effects and articles in personal use -- except arms, horses, military equipment and military papers -- shall remain in the possession of prisoners of war, as well as their metal helmets and gas-masks.
Sums of money carried by prisoners may only be taken from them on the order of an officer and after the amount has been recorded. A receipt shall be given for them. Sums thus impounded shall be placed to the account of each prisoner.
Their identity tokens, badges of rank, decorations and articles of value may not be taken from prisoners.

Comment by the International redcross as to the status of German and Japanese surrendered personnel in 1945

The present Article 5 is the essential provision which prevents the "transformation" of prisoners of war.
One category of military personnel which was refused the advantages of the Convention in the course of the Second World War comprised German and Japanese troops who fell into enemy hands on the capitulation of their countries in 1945 (6). The German capitulation was both political, involving the dissolution of the Government, and military, whereas the Japanese capitulation was only military. Moreover, the situation was different since Germany was a party to the 1929 Convention and Japan was not. Nevertheless, the German and Japanese troops were considered as surrendered enemy personnel and were deprived of the protection provided by the 1929 Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War. The Allied authorities took the view that unconditional surrender amounted to giving a free hand to the Detaining Powers as to the treatment they might give to military personnel who fell into their hands following the capitulation. In fact, these men were frequently in a very different situation from that of their comrades who had been taken prisoner during
the hostilities, since very often they had not even gone into [p.76] action against the enemy. Although on the whole the treatment given to surrendered enemy personnel was fairly favourable, it presented certain disadvantages: prisoners in this category had their personal property impounded without any receipt being given; they had no spokesman to represent them before the Detaining Power; officers received no pay and other ranks, although compelled to work, got no wages; in any penal proceedings they had the benefit of none of the guarantees provided by the Convention. Most important of all, these men had no legal status and were at the entire mercy of the victor. Fortunately, they were well treated but this is no reason to overlook the fact that they were deprived of any status and all guarantees.

**robertdmountfor** · 01-24-2008, 05:52 PM

Originally posted by Jean-Loup View Post

"Dont forget fighting was fanatical right until the end, and the people were behind their Fuhrer 100%."

This is total BS. Towards the end of the war the Germans were surendering by the thousands on the western Front.
As an example, already in August 1944, the Germans put up a very half assed fight in southern France, with most units surrendering after they lost a few men. Nothing fanatical there...

JL

Fighting alone for 6 years against all the allied forces...... the battle for Berlin was one of the fiercest of them all! The Volksturm, the Hitler Youth.... these were civilians not armed forces. The casualty numbers speak for themselves. Whatever you may think of them, the last struggle for Berlin was an incredible example of self sacrifice and struggle for existence from the people aswell as the armed forces...one never seen before, or indeed after.

**sachem** · 01-24-2008, 10:40 PM

Originally posted by robertdmountfor View Post

Fighting alone for 6 years against all the allied forces...... the battle for Berlin was one of the fiercest of them all! The Volksturm, the Hitler Youth.... these were civilians not armed forces. The casualty numbers speak for themselves. Whatever you may think of them, the last struggle for Berlin was an incredible example of self sacrifice and struggle for existence from the people aswell as the armed forces...one never seen before, or indeed after.

Don 't discount the sacrifices made b the soviets at Stalingrad.

**HG_Lang** · 01-24-2008, 11:05 PM

Originally posted by robertdmountfor View Post

Dont forget fighting was fanatical right until the end, and the people were behind their Fuhrer 100%.

100% of the people? Not in the 30's, let alone in the wartime period, especially when the very idea of a German victory became an absurd fantasy. A very brief and incomplete list include the hundreds of artists, celebrities, scientists, and educaters who fled Germany in the 30s, many of whom contributed to the Allied war effort, the students of the White Rose, the conspiritors of the 20 July 1944 assassination plot, and Hermann Göring's brother Albert Göring who openly opposed the Reich's policies and would eventually assist in the escape of many Jews from concentration camps. It is also known that he assisted in acts of sabotage in concert with the Czech resistance during his time at the Skoda Works.

Shane

**Jean-Loup** · 01-25-2008, 04:42 AM

"the battle for Berlin was one of the fiercest of them all! "

I specificaly said "western front" in my post, whoch doesnt include Berlin as far as I know.
Anyways, even in Berlin there were plenty of men surendering.

JL

**Admiraal** · 01-25-2008, 09:30 AM

Well the eastfront was differend then the west, most soldiers were afraid to surrender to the Russians, and that it was fanatical was because it was there country, they fought mainly for that, the WH disliked Hitler more and more.
WH soldiers sometimes even got punishment for doing the "hitler-greeting" although Hitler orderd that that must be used as greeting.

Ofcourse this is not about all Germans, there were enough fanatical soldiers.
But most were not.

**RobertCOUTTS** · 01-25-2008, 06:20 PM

Booty

Hi,
I am not going to get involved in what should or shouldnt be returned to prior owners. What perplexed me about this thread was the opinions some members have on German soldiers and people in general. Overall they were good soldiers and fought on long after a lot of others would have thrown the towel in. If I thought they were 'cowards' or people to be despised and we kicked their butts good and proper I would not want to collect german militaria. Another member asked this question but received no reply. Can one extract satisfaction from owning a vanquished foes items? Stalin liked to look at Hitlers jawbone from time to time seems he kept it in a drawer. I guess when it comes down to it its only logical this hobby would attract some 'strange' characters. I am one of them.
cheers Robert

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