Re-enactment Question II

[Sebastian Bianchi]

Ok... here is another "basic" (stupid) question; how do you know when you're "dead"? I guess it's all well and good when you are parading around or camping, but in battles.... it has to end sometime, right?

[DJT]

LOL apparently thats one of the biggest problems with re-enactment. Most "battles" dont have a referee. In proper military war games you would have a referee or you would be using electronic pads that when someone points their gun at you or fires blanks at you it sounds off and you have to play dead. I`ve heard some re-enactment battles end in a roaring contest of "i shot you first" "B*&$@#!!!!!, I shot you first" etc etc

Regards,

Des

[J Melvin]

Seba, over the years, I've seen it done a few different ways. The most common way is an "honor system" in which if you see a guy open up on you within 50 yards, you pretty well can consider yourself toast if you were not protected by a barrier. The problem with this is that we can be less than honorable and it can turn into a bang! bang! "I got youuuuuu!!!" mess. Once, you are dead, you enter a "dead pool" at the rear for 15 to 30 minutes, depending upon rules at that event.

Second is a system called the Graff system. I've not been involved in an event using it. But, I know guys like Brian and Willi have. Maybe one can expound on it. This seems to be used mainly up in the Northeast.

I've also seen the use of referees. Almost like military maneuvers. Based upon the tactics used by both sides, the referees will decide how many casualties were taken and what the ultimate outcome of the skirmish may be. Kind of like Dungeons and Dragons without the board, and with independently thinking game pieces.

Finally, and one that I really liked, one using medics in which the medics carry "wound cards". When you've been hit under the honor system (see above), a medic comes to your aid. He then pulls a wound card from his pouch and opens it. It will say what the extent of the person being treated's injuries are. From missed, to grazed, to dead. If not killed, second hit is a death and you return to the aforementioned "dead pool".

That's what I've seen in 7 years of doing this. There may be others. Brian, can you expand upon Graff?

[Adrian Stevenson]

Hi Guys, most of our events are public and are scripted before hand At private "battles" we always use an umpire who decides the outcome, but people most now "play the game" and act fair.
Cheers, Ade.

[Brian M]

the Graef system is employed at some events..... our last battle used this system.... unfortunately all of the referees were U.S. unit officers, so that made life hard for our side. the scales were not so "balanced".
points are added and deducted for different things.... there is a site describing the Graef system and I will add a link a little later. one of the things that a lot of points get deducted for are not taking a "hit" or yelling the old "I got you", crap.
so it behooves all involved to play fair, and if someone thinks they are made of Kevlar, just ignore them. (U.S. reenactors seem to all be made of this material, certain units especially and we just ignore them and move off to fight more play friendly units)

it depends on the action how you are to play dead. if you are on the advance, you take your hit and lay down dead until there is no longer any fighting in the area and all of your troops have advanced beyond your position. then you "regenerate". it makes the battle more fun for those who get killed at the beginning of an event because they can keep on fighting. in static battles, you die, go to the rear or your fallback or regrouping point, rest for a few minutes, and then rejoin the action as a reinforcement. when being over run, you die, and fall back with your unit, but are still dead until you get to a regrouping area.
typically when killed, you remove your helmet (lets troops on both sides know you are dead and out of the action so they will ignore you), and lay motionless. sometimes after a long hard battle this is almost a relief.... it is also good to remember that you don't always have to die and can be wounded.

[Brian M]

Graef system rules: link

[Sebastian Bianchi]

Thanks for indulging this basic question guys, great info.

[Kai-Steffen M.]

thanks all- and thanks seba- since i will be witness of or even be taking part in an reenactment soo that was a question i did want to ask too- seems to be quite complicated...

Gruß,
KSM

PS: thats why i like to play paintball: if it hurts, you know you are out

[Willi Z.]

It is really not very complicated and based alot on the honor system. It is a rather closeknit community, so we are only cheating ourselves.

The way I run my unit and battles is based more on manuever than individual kills. In offense you probe and look for weak positions or the flank. You use suppressive fire, stealth, indirect fire and smoke to assault. If the assault gets bogged down, you withdraw. It is these endless and mindless firefights that make up many reenactments that I don't support or allow my unit to get involved. Unless you used human wave techniques every unit would withdraw when they got pinned down and lost the initiative. By using manuever with selected fire you force other units to withdraw from their position....that is how you take objectives. When the battles turn into volleys of fire is when good commanders pull their guys back...otherwise you loose control and it gets silly with the hit calling.

Have used the Graeff system and referees........kinda torn on whether it really works.

For defense you do it in depth, use you MGs the way they were intended to be used. The rifles support the MG. You counter attack to seize the initiative when the attack falters.

It is really great fun when done right. I was a trained infantry officer, courtesy of the USAF sending me to IBOC, so I like to do it the right way.

Willi

[Kai-Steffen M.]

Willi, that really sounds like you know your stuff- im looking forward very much to the monte cassino event.
although i have an officer training my infantry commanding abilities are more nco-like, not for big units and overall tactics but more for small, independent units of max. 20 men (gruppenführer)- unfortunately my english does not allow me to discuss this in written form - well i think well have the possibility to go deeper into this live on location

Gruß,
KSM

[Mark S.]

What about troop movements? Are the leaders following actual wartime advances, or are they re-inventing the battle? It would seem that if you were re-enacting the invasion of France, and were expecting a panzer breakthrough at Sedan...there wouldnt be much of an element of surprise.

Are you guys allowed to use other battle plans from other wars? For instance, not being able to read the enemy, would you still make an over the top assesment and pull off a stunt like the charging brigades did at Balaclava....and expect to win? How much is actually knowing or expecting what the other guy will do, or not do?


Can you undo mistakes that were made (like the rerouting of the 4th Panzer at Stalingrad-Caucasus offensive) to make the outcome different..?

or is it everytime the same, reenacting the actual battle where Paulus' 6th Army bites the dust? I am sure it would be fun, but wouldnt also kind of suck knowing in advance that you are going to lose?

[Willi Z.]

Re-enactments (WWII that is, in most cases) recreate the battle in name only. The scope, distances covered, troops and equipment can not come close. Few events here in the US contain more than 100-200 participants. Even when we have over 1000, like at the Bulge, it is tough to recreate events. The events are not scripted to represent the actual battle. For example, the coming Monte Cassino battle will have a village on top of a large hill. The Germans will defend and the Allies will attack. No commander is under the obligation of retracing actual movements and events. The hobby is so widespread here in the US that regional events are more the order of the day, with the name of the battle only give most participants a timeframe to prepare themselves for in regards to the look of the impression. I know what you mean though Mark, but we don't pick 20 guys and say they represent the 1st FJD and that they need to follow the same battle plan and disposition as the actual unit did at Monte Cassino

Willi

[Brian M]

just to elaborate some on Willi's comments, some events are somewhat scripted. Public battles tend to be scripted. I.E. the Germans defend and the Allies must take the town or area and drive the German units out. sometimes this is difficult, because of the skills of the particular commanders and troops. (as was the case at last years Boonesboro event.) the German units held their ground well and repulsed the American advances because of superior skills and leadership. the Allies only took the ground because the German units fell back to fullfill the scenario, i.e. they never took the ground by force or will.

a perfect example of rewriting outcomes would be our Kampfgruppe's mission at the Bulge this year. Willi lead us far behind Allied lines and we ended up taking out the American command, thereby virtually ending the scenario, and resulting in German victory.
it would not be any fun to go to an event and know the outcome before hand. in my mind, good leadership is the key element, along with dedication of the troops.

[Mark S.]

Thanks guys..I am obviously on too large a scale.. Thanks for bearing with me.

How big of an area are your reenactments on? are we talking a field or two and a small forest, or 5 square miles...or....??

Ever have lingerers that you have to round up that dont know the battle is over?

[Willi Z.]

Not a problem Mark, I understand it is tough to visualize how it works. The events run from using a few 100 acres to a few 1000 to an Army installation with 10 square miles or so. As many are not true military types they do get lost......have seen entire units get lost in the woods

Brian is correct, some events are scripted, but in a sense to allow spectators and not to follow a historical battle. Some in the hobby think we should do more to let the public see what we do.......others disagree, as there are elements who want to ban our hobby, and they would rather not let it be too public. During the Clinton regime there was an effort to attach re-enacting to various gun control efforts.....made it much more difficult, if not now impossible, to use goverment land.

Willi