The mass grave in Villeneuve-Loubet, full details

[Jean-Loup]

And here is an other set I have, found at an other mass grave site.

[behblc]

I am delighted to see this excellent thread as one to be pinned , it is the outstanding thread in this section.

[pzrwest]

Those capsules remind of the ones we used to have in our vehicle first aid bags. They had a cloth like covering and you broke them and stuck them under a persons nose they had the stong smell of amonia sure wake you up in a hurry

[dblmed]

Jean-Loup & the Pursuit of History... Merci

Dear Jean-Loup,

I wish to add a very sincere THANK YOU, MERCI to you for the truly Outstanding efforts & results, which you have exhibited in this special WAF Posting.

As collectors of various Items of the TR, we too seldom stop to contemplate the carnage of human loss. The ‘millions’ of human lives lost in WW2, just seem to be ‘Only Numbers’ – until one reads a hand’s on Historical perspective, as you have done so well. You have captured a time, which would otherwise have been lost – and respectfully have brought it into the present. You are to be Applauded for doing so.

Reading these entire preceeding 13 pages, and watching the attached links to Videos, was a 2 hour process for me – as I read in utter amazement, at what you have accomplished! Tres Bien, indeed. You are much like a modern day Indiana Jones, in your pursuit of your goal – to find the Mass Grave @ Villeneuve & to bring a Closure for the 14 German Soldiers.

As I have read all of this, it seems that you have spent 8-9 years in this Special Quest – consisting of:
Reading:
Researching;
Interviewing Eye-Witnesses & Others;
Searching for the Site;
Excavation & Honorable Exhumation;
Forensic Analysis of Findings;
Identification of Identities;
Honorable Reburial & Closure;
Follow Up with Involved & Interested parties.

I say, " Congratulations to You" as we are ALL so very much richer for the Shared Experiences. The German Veterans & Families - standing next to the French Veterans & Families .... is a testimony of the importance of this Remembrance & Closure - which only YOU have facilitated. Felicitations.

In the early part of this thread, I saw that you were (?are?) Etudiant du Medcine. So I assume that you were / are a Medical Student, or you are involved in the Medical Sciences. If Not, you should be – because your pragmatic skills of scientific analysis are well suited to that of a Medcin / Physician. Your analytical skills in forensic analysis of the trauma issues (soft tissue & bony tissues) is as accurate as that performed by a Forensic Pathologist – you have a special grasp & a special comprehension of the human body & how it is impacted by traumatic events. Hopefully your many talents lead you into a career in Medicine, although you could just as easily become a famous Archeologist / Anthropologist or a Writer – as you are now already, to those of us - the readers of your Posting!

We need to remember the History of the Past (especially WW2) – and the Lessons of the Past, and Learn from them – and to Hopefully leave this world in a better state than when we entered it. You, for one, have already done this. I can only encourage you to continue in your pursuit of History – and to share your findings with others. Txs, Dr. Dave / dblmed

[dblmed]

Mystery Ampoules - Yes, for 1st AID

I too believe that the 'Mystery Ampoules' are contents of a 1st Aid Kit or Supplies.

Usually, smaller sized Ampoules for AMMONIA / Smelling - 'Wake Up' Salts were at times found in US 1st Aid Kits. They were covered with a Cloth / Nylon Meshing - so that upon breaking the glass Ampoule - no glass fragments would penetrate the Soldier's hand & fingers. But they were much smaller in length.

I enlarged your last Ampoule Photo & I see areas towards the ends of several Ampoules which looks like the 'Scored' circular lines - generally found on medical Ampoules. The purpose of this was to 'pick' a location where the Ampoule would break open. It would only be logical that the 'opening' site should be at the end area of the glass - so that the precious liquid could be poured out & not spilled, upon breaking the glass. N'est-ce pas?

The Alcohol / Ether smell is totally consistent with a 'disinfection' agent - as preventing / controlling and infection was of paramount importance in an Era where antibiotics were very rare! Only Sulfa & some Penicillin was available in WW2 on the Allied side. I'm not aware of whether these were readily available on the German / Italian side? (Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can comment on this aspect?)

Also, the prior Posting that the Ampoules could be of Italian 1st Aid origin is also of important consideration - since Villneuve is only a short distance from the Italian border at Menton.

I'm attaching a 'typical' German Vehicle 1st Aid Kit with partial contents. I see no definite Ampoules - but they would have been packaged in cardboard (to prevent breakage) & covered with a Cloth Shield. Txs, Dave / dblmed

[dblmed]

Perhaps HERE are the Mystery Vials? .....dblmed

This Photo is courtesy of Peter Whamtom's superb WW2 Site, which Always has a number of medical items! Found under HEER ....Medical.
http://www.Germanmilitaria.com/Heer

Note: The protective covering on the Glass - which would be expected to have been lost to the the ravaves of time.

Are the listed Measurements ....near the same as those found by you in 2 separate grave sites?

Txs, Dave / dblmed

[Jan B]

This Photo is courtesy of Peter Whamtom's superb WW2 Site, which Always has a number of medical items! Found under HEER ....Medical.
http://www.Germanmilitaria.com/Heer

Note: The protective covering on the Glass - which would be expected to have been lost to the the ravaves of time.

Are the listed Measurements ....near the same as those found by you in 2 separate grave sites?

Txs, Dave / dblmed

Aha, thanks Dave for you contribution . Now we can be sure they are indeed medical ampulles containing "entgiftungsmittel"

Cheers
Jan

[Jean-Loup]

Dear Dave

Thanks a lot for your many overly kind comments about my work . I am indeed a medical student like it said in one of the videos, and have participated as a volunteer to some forensic activities on many occasions. The quest of the mass grave did last a long time. It was a lengend from my childhood, that I decided to explore. Now that I have all the methodology in place for finding vets, finding graves, etc, I could redo the same job in a much shorter time. But for this grave, everything was new, and a learning process. I only posted a few of my veteran interviews in this thread, and am keeping the rest for when I make my book about the liberation of the Cote d'Azure.

It looks like you have clearly identified what these glass tubes are for. I said that they smelled like ether/alcohol... But I admit I dont know what ammonia smells like, and for all I know the smell was actualy that of ammonia. The contents of the tubes seems ridiculusly small to be used as a disinfectant: there is almost nothing inside. On the other hand, the ammonia theory/ "wake up salts" looks very plausible.

Here is a scan showing the size of the tubes I found in centimeters (approx 5.5cm). They look very similar to the tubes in the link, that are also apparently the same as the tubes posted by Jan. So according to the link these tubes are actualy for decontamination on skin after a gas attack? So both the ammonia and the ether theory were wrong? Could somebody briefly translate what is written on the packaging of the tubes. I only managed to understand about half of what is written! Thanks a lot Dave for finaly solving the mystery tube mystery!
The strange thing is that both times I found these tubes, there were 5 of them all together, and on there own, wit no box, or anything. Maybe there was also a different type of packaging made, with only 5 tubes inside.

Jean-Loup

[dblmed]

Ammonia Ampoule Theory = NO ...dblmed

Jean-Loup ………..

I am so very pleased that you are studying Medicine, as you will become an outstanding and fine Physician! How far are you along in your study program?

I was very fortunate to locate those similar dimensioned glass tubes / Ampoules on the Referenced Web Site: http://www.Germanmilitaria.com

(1) AMMONIA INHALANT THEORY: I believe "No," for these reasons:

a) The typical Ammonia Inhalants are very much smaller (perhaps only 2-3 cm. in size). (I will attach a Photo).
b) When ‘broken open’ – they emit a rather noxious odor of Ammonium Hydroxide which is a ‘Wake Up’ chemical which irritates the nasal passages and the respiratory pathway … thus they are called ‘Smelling Salts’ because they were use to wake up knocked out Boxers, or someone who Fainted.
c) Even after 60+ years, the liquid inside the Ampoules was sealed in air-tight glass. My opinion is that you would have noted a Bad / Noxious smell & would have dropped it and withdrawn from it.
d) So, for these reasons … I would discount the Ammonia Inhalant Theory

(Photo – of Typical Ammonia Inhalant Ampoules - Wrapped).

Txs, Dave / dblmed

[dblmed]

Decontamination / Disinfectant Ampoule Theory

(2) DECONTAMINATION / DISINFECTANT AMPOULE THEORY: I believe that this, is "YES" – for these reasons & opinions:

a) The long size of the Glass Ampoules better fits with the actual Objects found, - and with the Ampoules in the Metal Box (Tin) in the Photo.
b) Even with an oversized metal box of 7.62 cm. in width, the ‘Swabs’ have at least 0.5 cm. on each side in space 7.62 cm. – 1.0 cm. = 6.62 cm. for the complete Fabric Covered Swab.
c) The Fabric Covering is greatly Oversized – as each end is pinched shut to protect the Glass (& the eventual person who breaks the Glass). So there is another 0.5 cm. of protective fabric on each end = 6.62 – 1.0 cm. = 5.62 Cm. This measurement is very close to the actual glass Ampoules which have been found. (You noted 5.5 cm. in measurements.)
d) The metal tin could well have rusted away / decomposed as it is made of very thin metal construction?
e) The Smell of ‘Alcohol / Ether’ – is consistent with a Decontamination / Disinfectant Ampoule.
f) WHY 5 in the two Grave Sites? I really don’t know the answer. It could be just co-incidence? Or, it could be that those types of Ampoules were also packaged in smaller containers of 5 – instead of the larger Metal Box of 16. The would have needed to be protected (from Glass breakage) by a Metal, or a Cardboard Box …. either of which would have decomposed.
g) Also, as noted earlier – these Ampoules could have been purchased from Private Pharmaceutical Sources for use. (And, of course, they could be from an Italian 1st Aid Source, as I am not familiar with the Contents of Italian Kits. Some more research to do – but the German theory seems to answer the questions, for me!)
h) WHY the package name of "Gas Decontamination Ampoules?" As you showed in one Photo, you found an intact Gas Mask in, or near to, the grave site. Most WW2 Period photos show German Soldiers with their Gas Masks and with Gas Sheets (Plasticised). So, having a supply of the labeled "Gas Decontamination Ampoules" would be consistent with this practice.
i) Also, it is just my belief … that Soldiers always improvise, and that the Soldiers would have discovered that the "Decontamination Ampoules" also worked well, when applied to Cuts, Burns & Traumatic Wounds. Just my opinion. For a Soldier in the field, any type of 1st Aid Supply – is much better that having none at all, for sure – as Medics were often Killed & a 1st Aid Station was often non existent. Soldiers learned to make it on their own - & take care of themselves.

Txs, Dave / dblmed

[dblmed]

(3) Theory # 3 - "cyanide" Ampoule Theory

(3) THEORY # 3 – This One is Just for Scientific Exercise ….

A "CYANIDE" AMPOULE THEORY:
I believe that this, is "NO" – for these reasons & opinions:

a) YES, there were & are examples of WW2 period CYANIDE AMPOULES.
b) YES, they were certaily used – note H. Himmler’s Death upon crushing one between his teeth. = Fairly Instant Death!!!
c) The Cyanide Ampoules were very small (to be concealed) ... PLUS …..
d) You Guys (and Girls) Thankfully, didn’t get KILLED, when you smelled the contents of the broken open Glass Ampoules!!
e) Therefore, I am very glad to discount the Cyanide Theory - otherwise, there would be no more Jean-Loup to carry on these discoveries!!!

Txs, Dave / dblmed

[dblmed]

How To Prove What Is The Liquid In The Ampoules?

HOW TO PROVE WHAT IS THE LIQUID IN THE AMPOULES?

The 'Absolute' Proof of the Contents of the Liquid in the Glass Ampoules can be definitely be determined by very sophisticated (and expensive) laboratory testing.

Using the testing Methodology of GC/MS - Gas Chromatography / Mass Spectometry - one would be able to identify the chemical contents of the Liquid in the Ampoules. My best 'guess' is that of Isopropyl Alcohol, with some additional trace ingredients.

Luckily, You as a Medical Student, may have the special access to those specialized types of Labs which perform these types of tests. You may be able to actually analyze the 60+ year old Liquid!!! This would make an outstanding study for a Bio-Chemistry Term Paper, or special project. Professors are always interested in answering the 'Unknowns.' Who knows?

Some of the potential 'unknowns' would be What Happens to a liquid chemical mixture which is stored for 60+ years? Is there any chemical degradation of the mixture? Or, is it stable - hermetically sealed in that glass tube? A great research project for sure!!

In the absence of 'AIR' - the sealed contents of containers SEEMS to keep the contents intact. For example, I have read references of the following:

a. A 100+ year old Bottled Bordeaux ... is still wine & is still Good...
b. A 1,000+ year old sealed Greek Amphora filled with wine ..... contains still unspoiled Wine..
c. A 500+ year old sealed Olive Oil Amphora ..... contains still unspoiled Olive Oil.

So, I think that you have a very good chance - of finding that the Liquid Contents which are still inside of the Glass Ampules ...... is Exactly what was originally placed inside of them.

**** JEAN-LOUP - on ANOTHER SUBJECT: I understand that you are writing a Book regarding the Cote d'Azure in WW2, and I applaud your success in that effort.
In my collection, I have 5 patches from the Vichy French Forces which I would be pleased to share with you .... If you do not already have these examples in your Collection or Archives? You can contact me at my provided eMail, through the Web ID.

Keep up ALL of your Great Work in Discovering the Answers to Many of the Still Unknown Questionf of WW2 - & - Doing So With Respect & Humility...
Txs, Dave / dblmed .....

[dblmed]

Another Type of 1st Aid Bottle / Ampoule

Another Type of 1st Aid Bottle / Ampoule

CASED ISSUE SEPSO VIALS. (Sepso Tinktur Phiole im Etui) - See PHOTO

Courtesy once again Credits to * COLLECTOR’S GUILD (Peter Whammon)
http://www.Germanmilitaria.com

"...PHYSICAL DESCRIPTION: Five roughly, 2 3/4" tall, 1/2" diameter molded brown glass vials with embossed script, "Sepsotinktur", (Tincture of Sepso), and a screw on molded black bakelite cap to each. The vials come housed in their original, 3 1/4" tall, 3 1/2" wide, 3/4" thick, cardboard case with black and orange paper coverings. The case has a friction fit, removable top lid with a glued on white paper label with red printed Latin script that includes, "Sepsotinktur Inhalt 5 mal 5ccm Wehrkreissanitatspark XI Hannover", (Tincture of Sepso Contents 5 of 5ccm vials Military District Hannover). Some of the Contents of the vials have leaked onto the cardboard. ..."

I have seen this type of 1st Aid Preparation in some German WW2 1st Aid Kits which I have examined. The Sepso is made glass, with a Black screw off Bakelite Top & with the Name Embossed in the glass - so, it will be easy to identify. I would imagine that you may find this type in some of your 'ArcheoHistorical Digs' and therefore I wish to share this article with you & your Team.

However, the contents of WW2 1st Aid kits would have been very Valuable to other German Soldiers & to Allied Soldiers & to the local French Population. Since 1st Aid Supplies were rationed, and were saved primarily for the military - these types of supplies were in limited distribution & supply. It may therefore be Rare to find many 1st Aid Kit supplies / items in a dig. But, you already found the other 5 Ampoules TWICE - so, who knows what will be unearthed. Submitted for your Historical Referece Archives ...... Dave / dblmed

[dblmed]

Note Also - Packaged In 5 - In A Carboard Pack

NOTE ALSO - GLASS PACKAGED IN SET of 5 - IN A CARBOARD PACK

This is what I postulate for the 5 Glass Ampoules, which you found on the two (2) separate occasions, in your historical digs.

Your Glass Ampoules ... were very likely packaged as '5 / Box.'
Your Glass Ampoules ... were very likely packaged in a Cardboard box.

C'est Tout ....... Dave / dblmed

[Simon O.]

I've never found any of these straight ampules before but have found a lot of these. When found they're always broken at the neck apart from these 4 which were found together in a pit that must have been related to the medical services as various other medical items came from there.

We've always called these 'morphine ampules' but to be honest we're not sure.