Enemy at the Gates (question)

[Simon O.]

Well looks im wrong about the WAST,I read that information from another website so I guess there information is incorrect. Sorry

Its still in my opinion that this German sniper Zaitsev killed was indeed the head of some sniper school in Germany - Given his service record I see no reason for Vassili to lie about what these documents said. And yet German prisoners told the Captain Batyuk before the duel, that a Major Koenig has been flown in to take out Zaitsev.

This is my opinion of course

Best regards

Fair enough but it's simply not reliable and i don't believe it's Zaitsev that's behind it but rather the propaganda machine. The duel is constructed to symbolise a simple peasant defeating a 'superior' German high ranking officer. It wouldn't have been as good if it had been simple peasant against simple peasant.

Ok, so one sniper took out another but when no trace of this purported high profile relatively high ranked officer can be found, nor the apparent establishment he came from when all the necessary resources and archives are available then you know the story has been modified somewhat. Remember that one version even claims it was an SS colonel!


Without any evidence of either König or the sniper school then the story remains an 'enhanced' propaganda story of the time.

[paddywhack]

if the soviets did find his solduch etc you could be damn sure that would be up on display either in moscow or stalingrad along with his scope!!!

[Josef]

I highly doubt it,Zaitsev in his memoirs explains that eventually he handed Koenigs documents to the division commander Nikolay Batyuk.
Nikolay Batyuk was killed in combat in 1943,unfortunatley its highley likely these documents were lost during the war

[peterm]

The important point to get across here, from a historians perspective is to take any facts and figures given in original sources about the enemy with a large pinch of salt until you can cross reference them with the enemy's sources.
In this case we have 3 facts that can, quite easily be checked through German sources. A sniper school at Zossen ca.1942 and two relatively senior officer's names in either the Heer or SS, König and Thorwald. For SS officers and Heer officers from Major on up finding them if they exist is relatively easy, rank lists are quite readily available. A sniper school at Zossen would also be known, especially this early in the war when German sniper training was in it's infancy.
Add to that the rediculous idea of a senior German officer actually being a sniper. Yes you'd have an officer commanding such a school but their job was to command such a training establishment not actually be a sniper. That's what you have instructors for and they, almost to a man would have been NCOs.
It is not, nor has it ever been the job of an officer to be a sniper. Especially not in the German army where to many an old school Prussian officer the very idea of snipers was distasteful, even up to the end of the war.
As we already know the leading German snipers all started their careers (as snipers) in the last 2 years of the war, they were privates or at the most junior NCOs. They were kids, the leading sniper for example was only 21 at the war's end and it seems a high proportion of the best were in fact Austrian.

where the story does make sense is in the context of a Soviet propaganda story. The simple Russian soldier taking on the aristocratic German officer head to head. The symbolism of the story is plain to see on several different levels. Communism v fascism, working class v upper class etc. etc.

Nothing more to say, Simon !!!! That's all !!!
I personnally knew KC-winner Matthäus Hetzenauer (died in 2004, I think).
But I am very surprised, how MANY forum-members do believe in Hollywood-films and their own fantasy...

Kind regards,

Peter

[Josef]

Believe in Hollywood films,when have I ever made that statement? Enemy at the gates was a joke! Im not sure what you mean by "fantasy" as I was giving my opinion on the subject which is I believe Zaitsevs story because he was there,However I do not believe the same old "Soviet propaganda" tale, for having 2 grandfathers that served in the Great Patriotic war I know things did not work that way-there was a thing called honesty between the soldiers and reporters.
Anyway its obvious everyone here has their own opinion,I see no reason in dragging this on.

Im finished

Regards