Race in Nazi Germany

[nt198998]

I have a few questions about Nazi Germany:

1. Why did the Nazis support the Ustasha and the Bosnian Muslim SS? Werent they racially unsuitable

2. Would a Pole or "Slav" would be allowed to enter Germany, or Berlin and live there

3. What did the Germans think of the Poles?

4. What did they feel about the Baltics?

5. My friend is Estonian, and his grandpa was drafted into the Volksturm, and he descends from Estonians (possibly Volksdeutschen), and Germans. Even though he has dark brown hair, what would his situation be like in Germany?

[J Melvin]

It's open for now. But tread lightly people.

[Don D.]

You could add "How did the Japanese fit into the Master Race theory?" Political expedience of course. Look at the SS. As the war went on and they became desperate for manpower they modified thier standards.

[Theodor]

I don't think Germany was going to exterminate all other races/nations from the face of Earth after the Victory day. Some yes, all - not. Actually IMO the theories applied to a ceartain part of the world and only some sujects. Ceartainly Germany was going to be well totally cleaned, as well a Poland, half of Russia and some other countries nearby. The rest of the German allies would probably have to give their jewish and gipsy populations, but that's all. Indeed Bosnians and Albanians were drafted in the SS, but these were always out of Germany, after the end of the war they ould return to their countries - allies/satellites of Germany and serve the pro-German rules there.

Also, Germany had apetite for "only" half of the pie. The other half was for Japan.

From what I have read, I think the other races were considered something quite exotic and the blacks from Afrika and the "yellow" from Asia were not planned for extermination, at least not in the next 100 years /different was the situation of the blaks in Europe/. Also not the Arabs, I don;t think there was a plan for their extermination. The racial theory seems to apply in its full force on the territories that were Germanq the territories which were going to become German and also the neighboring countries - all these in Eurasia. My impression is, that the policy was to clear Europe and the European part of Russia/USSR, while the other races in Afrika and Asia were rather considered something exotic and not subject to special measures.

[Daniele C]

id say that if hitler really invaded russia at the end he wud av started it against japan till he conquerd the whole world

[VonLuck]

I don't think Germany was going to exterminate all other races/nations from the face of Earth after the Victory day. Some yes, all - not. Actually IMO the theories applied to a ceartain part of the world and only some sujects. Ceartainly Germany was going to be well totally cleaned, as well a Poland, half of Russia and some other countries nearby. The rest of the German allies would probably have to give their jewish and gipsy populations, but that's all. Indeed Bosnians and Albanians were drafted in the SS, but these were always out of Germany, after the end of the war they ould return to their countries - allies/satellites of Germany and serve the pro-German rules there.

Not all were assumed to return to Germany. A good number of Spaniards were included in the most elite divisions of the German heartland. Many of them marrying and settling in Germany, never to return to Spain.
As the boneheaded "master race" pipe dream faded away into reality, the SS had no choice but to relax their standards.

[JaimeH]

The Nazi's racial ideas were very selective. Muslims were (anti jewish) so acceptable (read about Anwar Sadat and Yasar Arafat's ties to Nazi's). the Japanese were considered the "Aryans" of Asia. Got real close with that one.

[Aave Johns]

[quote=JaimeH;1597711]The Nazi's racial ideas were very selective. Muslims were (anti jewish) so acceptable (read about Anwar Sadat and Yasar Arafat's ties to Nazi's). the Japanese were considered the "Aryans" of Asia. quote]

Yes, and the Japanese have never been bought to account for their war-crimes like Germany was, but they had every intention of disposing of the white population in Asia, though not with the same ruthless determination that the Germans had. And their history books do not reflect the atrosities
that they commited, a sore point with Australian veterans, and others that were captured and held as POW's.

1. Why did the Nazis support the Ustasha and the Bosnian Muslim SS? Werent they racially unsuitable

2. Would a Pole or "Slav" would be allowed to enter Germany, or Berlin and live there

First one: the Germans were very good at using pre-existing animosity between local populations to free up their own manpower. Thus they would side with one cause and support it if it suited their needs. As you are probably aware there has been trouble in this region for centuries, thus it was exploited, the Ustasha/Bosnians saw it as a means to gain the upper hand and the Germans saw it as a means to free up their units to fight elsewhere. They did this in practically every state they invaded, and it is still effecting the modern world, Chechnya being an example of this, and the former Yugoslavia. It had disasterous concequences for many countries post-war that fell behind the Iron Curtain, Cossacks from the Terek region, the entire population of Georgia (Stalin's own people), and many other populations were deported en-masse.
They use these prejudices to round up local Jewish populations. Many executions blamed on them were actually carried out by locals, some in the most brutal ways possible, though these all fade into insignificance when compared to the toll taken by death camps.

Second one: Poles were used in factories and as domestic servants all over Germany. Despite the ruthless treatment at the hands of Germany, toward the end of the war some parts of the Polish population wanted to fight alongside the Germans, the alternative as far as they were concerned was far worse than German occupation. The Russians had executed, deported and imprisoned many Poles in '39, and many still held a grudge against the Reds. Hitler would not allow any Poles to serve, I don't know if this was ignorned toward the closing days of the Reich, perhaps another forum member could shed some light on the subject.

Regards;

Johnsy

PS: Please note that while the Germans never made it into the Chechen region a very fierce resistance in anticipation of their arrival was being carried out by anti-Russian Chechen's. It affected the Russian defence around Stalingrad, as aircraft had to be diverted to quash the rebellion. This conflict stems back to the late 1700's.

[Stephen Stout]

tomorrow I would pull out good'ol Mein Kampf.

[TMurray]

[quote=MReid;1594678]I have a few questions about Nazi Germany:

1. Why did the Nazis support the Ustasha and the Bosnian Muslim SS? Werent they racially unsuitable - the Ustasha were anti Communist (actually they were pro Roman Catholic & Croatian Nationalism), it suited the German objective of supressing Tito's partisans and suppressing the Jews, Gypsies etc

2. Would a Pole or "Slav" would be allowed to enter Germany, or Berlin and live there - unlikely, probably only as forced labourers

3. What did the Germans think of the Poles? - inferior, an expendable resource

4. What did they feel about the Baltics? - many Baltic people welcomed the Germans as liberators and later collaborated with the Germans in the extermination of Jews. The Soviets had invaded these countries and the Balts are probably closer racially to the Prussians than the Russians.

5. My friend is Estonian, and his grandpa was drafted into the Volksturm, and he descends from Estonians (possibly Volksdeutschen), and Germans. Even though he has dark brown hair, what would his situation be like in Germany - his Dienstpasse would probably have stated 'Deutsche Reichs'

[Historama]

the replies on political/military expedience, I think, hit the points on the head.

As a basis to answering your questions you have to appeciate the centrality of anti-Semitism to Naziism and how that, more than anything else, guided Nazi policy. Beyond "Mein Kampf", an excellent and short book on the subject is Eberhard Jackel's "Hitler's World View" (originally published in German). It will show you how Hitler turned the needs and realities of Germany upside down just in order to exterminate the Jews. Looked at 65-70 years later it seems astonishing but based on his wartime decisions Hitler really sacrificed advantages to Germany in order to persue the "final solution". It's difficult to absorb now, but his whole plan to go to war was just to exterminate a certain race - at any price (as it turned out).

As far as initial high standards on race, if you consider something closer to home here at this forum, recall what happened to the early foreign volunteers in the Wehrmacht (1940-41): the Flems, Walloons, Dutch, Danish, French and Norwegians weren't Aryan enough to be admitted into the Waffen-SS, and initially absorbed into the Army. I seem to recall an offhand remark by Himmler -? about the "low" Aryan quality of the Belgians in that period (I have to find what it was).

In reality, the Reich Government didn't share any of the aspirations of the collaborating West European governments - there were many disagreements over the degree of nationalism which could be exhibited in all those countries (here I recall the disappointments of Quisling in dealing with Terboven).

The Arab case - for the purpose of addressing today's political climate - needs to be relegated mostly to the Mufti of Jerusalem. While many Arabs may not have liked the Jews back then I think the historical record will show that his involvement in Bosnia and in Palestine-Egypt had more to do with Arabs/Moslems in the SS than any real popular movement towards supporting the "final solution". In many respects he was the "Bin Laden" of that era - though representing a small fringe. Again, German support of him being a political expedient.

[Historama]

I have to qualify my point above regarding the West Europeans and the degree of "Aryan-ness" (I'm away from my books for a while so I can't quote chapter and verse the precise points that I wanted to make) because it's based on very delicate procedural issues from the period 1940-41.

If my memory of Littlejohn, Reitlinger and a few others serves me correct, the Reich saw the Danes and Norwegians as proper Aryans though if Aryan-ness then was measured by full absorption in the Waffen-SS, there were measures which kept the even the Scandinavians and West Europeans initially out of the "inner circle" of the W-SS: first, they were organized as national "legions" (some in the framework of the Heer and others in the SS) and not as integral formations of the W-SS. Then, they wore foreign identification - here the point revolves around the sporting of the SS runes on the collar patch. Again, without my books here I can't quote it verbatim, but the wearing of the rune collar patches was a particular privilige not initially accorded these foreigners. One source (Littlejohn?) even remarks on the harsh treatment accorded the Norwegians by their German trainers.

At a later stage the designation of the units in the W-SS also attested to their degree of "Aryan-ness": those named something like "panzer grenadier [regiment/division] der SS" were considered outside of the realm whereas those titled something like "SS-[regiment/division] "Norge" were regarded as staffed by accepted Aryans.... although by this time the Reich's definition of "Aryan" was much more flexible than in 1940.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Nazis? Race? .... I thought Jesse Owens had answered that question for us in 1936......

[JaimeH]

"As a basis to answering your questions you have to appeciate the centrality of anti-Semitism to Naziism and how that, more than anything else, guided Nazi policy. Beyond "Mein Kampf", an excellent and short book on the subject is Eberhard Jackel's "Hitler's World View" (originally published in German). It will show you how Hitler turned the needs and realities of Germany upside down just in order to exterminate the Jews. Looked at 65-70 years later it seems astonishing but based on his wartime decisions Hitler really sacrificed advantages to Germany in order to persue the "final solution". It's difficult to absorb now, but his whole plan to go to war was just to exterminate a certain race - at any price (as it turned out)."

I disagree with some of that statement. Suprislingly the "final solution" did not have much effect on Germany's military advantages. Very little expense and a lot of advantages of using slave labor. Guards were either foriegn or undesirable quality soldier. The only misuse of manpower or equipment would have been the trains.

[Lucky Duck]

I disagree with some of that statement. Suprislingly the "final solution" did not have much effect on Germany's military advantages. Very little expense and a lot of advantages of using slave labor. Guards were either foriegn or undesirable quality soldier. The only misuse of manpower or equipment would have been the trains.

Two words: Brain Drain. Another two words: Atomic Bomb.

Ray