Two weeks of digging in Demjansk

[Jean-Loup]

Your thought on the subject are completely subjective, as Scotty said. There are plenty of museums exposing entire human bodies. But what is the difference, that those arent private collectors? Well, take a look at this: http://www.boneroom.com/bone/humanbones.html

No, I would not be particularly shocked to have a human bone in my collection, and expose it. In fact I would not be shocked at all. Even churches expose pieces of bones or of flesh of saints. Archeology museums own plenty of bones, and show them. Forensic science museums, that are often closed to the public own all kinds of stuff, cut heads, tatooes, etc, etc. I have been to some.
Sorry if I appear as a savage to some of you, but like I said, I have worked numerous time in cemeteries, autopsy rooms, funeral homes, etc, and a little piece of hare or of bone really doesnt have any emotional effect on me at all any more.
Simply type in the word "relic" at google images, and you will see what therest of society thinks about it.

JL

[bratwurstdimsum]

to not get too off the subject, I just saw a show that showed the doc that autopsied Beethoven's body, cut a lock of his hair and passed it down through the generations. It was kept in a glass dome with a hard base. Now in the 21st century, science was able to determine his cause of death from that hair...a worth cause and a worthy reason to keep the hair. (apart from it being perfectly normal in the 1800s.)

Jeff

[bratwurstdimsum]

Even churches expose pieces of bones or of flesh of saints. Archeology museums own plenty of bones, and show them.

True, In patra, greece, the skull of St Andrew is encased in a silver crown with the top of the skull justting out, exposed in a circular hole. I've seen it with my own eyes. In this day and age people get desensitised.

[Spanish Freiwillige]

I think that all opinions are valid, some museums do expose human body parts, I think that in those cases people before they die do specify that they donate their bodies to science or maybe if it’s an unknown person, the body is used or thrown in a common grave.

Finding the remains in a battle field, like Jean-loop says, well it’s another MIA, and if it can get a proper burial, great!!!. Most of us who study war know that a soldiers grave is rarely that one like the cemetery in La Cambe or Omaha beach, most monuments, graves, or remainders of the fallen are not carved in precious shiny rock, but a helmet over a rifle in some remote battlefield. Where they lay in rest with a lot of their comrades in arms, and are remembered by those who survived and they deserve respect and their bodies shouldn’t be disturbed unless they are sent to a war commentary.

A piece of hair in a helmet, I personally wouldn’t keep, but everybody is free to show in their collection what they want! Finding this in a helmet only shows that somebody died in it or that it remained there after the Volksbund discarded it and gave the soldier a good burial, playing around with hair or a finger nail is one thing, robbing graves destroying remains for gold teeth is something else, I don’t think this is the case.

[johannes post]

but what is the need too display human remains in a private collection.
yes there are museums who save human body's etc. but that are museums with a interrest in phatalogie,archeologie.
but we are here speaking about a recent war and what is then the value of showing that kind of human pieces. you can say "the horror of war"
but is this a good way too display ?
i think more in picture's
and not in pieces of human's.

regards johan

[Jean-Loup]

Well, as I said, each can have his point of view, and I fully respect yours. To be precise, I dont even know if haire qualifies as human remains.
What does that fact that the war is recent change? I also have an interest in pathology and archeology. What if in 10 years I open a public museum, does it then become OK to have the hair like this?
What should I have done with this hair when I found it? Thrown it out? Buried it in my garden? It is a piece of history that by chance has been preserved 60 years, and I will make sure it keeps on being preserved.
An other "food for thought" link:
http://www.roadsideamerica.com/set/arms.html

JL

[bratwurstdimsum]

but what is the need too display human remains in a private collection.

Johan, personally, hair is not my thing, but it seems to be Jean-Loup's. What people collect should not really be the subject of this thead as it is off topic really but its really personal preference what's in everybody's collection. This thread is about dug up bits in russia, you are sure going to get hair in helmets, whether it is connected with a dead person or not...there's plenty of hair in my hat I wear to work each day.

I'm SURE I have stuff in my collection that offends somebody

Jeff

[bnz. 42]

but what is the need too display human remains in a private collection.

Elementary, Watson! 'Strange' peopple like 'strange' things.<br><br>

[Jean-Loup]

Elementary, Watson! 'Strange' peopple like 'strange' things.

Indeed, just like some strange people like using strange symbols (like SS symbols) as their avatars. We could also have a 15 page discution about his fact.... How about getting back on topic?

[johannes post]

you are right jean.
back too the topic.
but it would't be a very interresting threaht what are the ethic rules in ore collection .
p.s. jean loup this is a very interresting threat.

regards johan


quote=Jean-Loup]Elementary, Watson! 'Strange' peopple like 'strange' things.

Indeed, just like some strange people like using strange symbols (like SS symbols) as their avatars. We could also have a 15 page discution about his fact.... How about getting back on topic?[/quote]

[johnm50]

Sorry but I do not see why collectors would want human remains in a personal collection, yes states do it but as an individual why?.

The site you mentioned further up in this thread has had in the past many dog tags, rings and dug up award badges, so where did they come from !

Sorry just MO
Best
John

[Mat Holloway]

Im sure concentration camps use jewish hair in their displays?

[Jean-Loup]

About the hair, I really dont understand the big deal! When you go to the hair dresser, you dont bring your hair to te cemetery as far as I know?

Response to John:

It is possible to find rings, dog tags and awards without digging up graves. But, I will agree with you, a certain number were probably taken in a grave one day or other. But even then, this doesn’t necessarily mean that the bones of a soldier were savagely dug up and thrown about. Indeed, the people that work for or with the german war graves commission (Volksbund) typically keep (legaly or not, I dont know) items they find with the KIA, and sell them afterwards: rings, helmets, etc. I guess it is considered a way for them to get a more proper salary. It is also possible to find many items in placeswhere exhumations were done, if you use a metal detector. Buttons, helmets, rings, dog tags, etc.<O</O
Also, there are many things on the site that are not found directly by Eugene and his team: they are put on his site for collectors from all over <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region w:st="on">Russia</st1:country-region>, and some things come from <st1:country-region w:st="on">Poland</st1:country-region> and <ST1<st1:City w:st="on">Kaliningrad</st1:City></ST1 too. Many dog tags are to be found in <st1:country-region w:st="on"><ST1Poland</ST1</st1:country-region>.<O</O
Actually, <st1:City w:st="on"><ST1Eugenes</ST1</st1:City> site rarely has any rings or dog tags at all if you pay attention (for example no WW2 dog tags at the moment). I saw he has some rings right now, but it is not him who found them, he is selling them for someone else. Who knows when and how they were found. Yes, some of them were probably stolen from a grave one day. I doesnt make a grave robber out of Eugene... It also isnt 100******249; ethical of course, but thats how things are in Russia.<O</O
Just as a note, since I often hear people violently criticizing Russian diggers. They exist because they have clients here in the west (and in <st1:country-region w:st="on"><ST1Russia</ST1</st1:country-region>). You may be surprised to find out that some of those clients specifically ask if they can be sent bones from SS men.
They offer money for it. Lots of money. <O</O
<O</O
JL<O</O

[PZIV]

Jean-Loup, This dig was amazing. I wish I could go with you next time you dig or by myself. I would live there for months to keep digging and I probably wouldn't sell too much of it.

It was a good idea to keep the hair and put it in the display that you did. If you want to keep it I think that's great.

I would love to hear more about the dig, or if possible keep me updated on upcoming digs in the future.

My email is line_of_fire55-md@yahoo.com

Thanks!

[Jean-Loup]

TK, I dont keep people updated on digs I do. If I have interesting pictures, and it is not against my interest to post pictures, then I do so. Otherwise I dont.
If you want to see an interesting dig, you can look atthis thread I made 2 years ago. It also started a debate...

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ight=volksbund