Is EveryThing From WW2 UV Nagitive?

[613chad10]

I was wondering if everything from ww2 is UV Nagitive? did Germans or Americans or Canadians ever use fabric with patches, flags or uniforms that would glow under a UV light? Thanks for the help.

[checkit]

I have scanned over many of the "UV Test" threads here and on other forums and they seem to omit a few important points.

First is, there is a difference between REACTING to a strong UV light source, and FLUORESCING under a strong UV light source.

I have seen US WW1 patches where the red fabric reacts mildly to UV, and I thought they were fake. Now I have a red silk WW1 guidon flag that came straight from the estate of a WW1 Battalion Commander, it has definitely never been laundered, and the red silk definitely REACTS to UV light. Even in WW1, they had synthetic dies, and some of them will react to UV.

Second point is, only plastic synthetics - such as Polyester Acetate, truly FLUORESCE (GLOW) under UV light.

So every thread talks about the use of Rayon, and how WW2 era patches made from Rayon will GLOW. Rayon is a synthetic thread, but unlike modern Polyesters, it is made from natural cellulose, and folks, Rayon does NOT glow. If it has been died with synthetic dies, or treated with brighteners if it is a white thread, then a WW2 era Rayon patch might REACT, but it definitiely will not GLOW, that is, FLUORESCE.

Now, to the real part of the question. In my experience, nothing I have ever encountered that was unquestionably WW2 era FLUORESCES under UV light. And maybe 1/2 of 1% of items that I felt were likely WW2 era ever REACTED to UV light. Yet 85% of items that I felt were likely repros had at least one component that FLUORESCED under a strongf UV light.

[613chad10]

so if it is really bright, its most likely a repro and if it has a light glow it just might have some die or Rayon in it and it maybe a original, how would you tell from Rayon and modern Polyesters besides the UV test?

[checkit]

Burn Test - only if practical, of course. Polyester/Acetate leave a hard ash, like molten plastic. Rayon leaves a soft ash. If you are buring a big enough piece, Polyester/Acetate will burn rapidly with crackling and dripping. I'm not sure why the fakers don't just use Rayon. It's not like it doesn't exist any more.

[613chad10]

Burn Test - only if practical, of course. Polyester/Acetate leave a hard ash, like molten plastic. Rayon leaves a soft ash. If you are buring a big enough piece, Polyester/Acetate will burn rapidly with crackling and dripping. I'm not sure why the fakers don't just use Rayon. It's not like it doesn't exist any more.

that is strange why wouldnt they, Rayon maybe a little more money, or its just a way for people to sell from real or fake, have no idea

[David Guist]

Hello I have had items that were never wash that glowed. I got them right out of the veterans house.So yes some original items will glow.Best regards.

[613chad10]

did they glow pretty bright, or were they glowing lightly?

[keifer kahn]

I echo Checkits points.

If an item "glows" it is simply not an instant indicator of reproduction.There is a lot of recorded information about this and once you become familiar with the scientific and historic facts about fluoresence,you will see the notion of "it glows=fake" is a somewhat naive notion.

Its a "minor "tool at best and should come at the end of all other preliminary investigations, such as checking stitching, fabric appearance, burn test,weave,smell,feel,construction,etc.
It should only be used to confirm what you think at the end of those.

Items washed in detergent will glow.The effect however is visibly duller compared to a modern produced white T shirt.

Its Also about using the blacklight correctly as some people tend to hold the blacklight too close, which causes "reflection" and they confuse this with "Glowing".

30cm,s is about a good balanced distance.

Certain period items have visible characteristics under blacklight,

Some original Panzer pinks turn fluoro orange.
The black sections of Heer helmet decals turn green.
Luftwaffe helmet decals turn a cremey yellow.
Sa dagger brown scabbard paint turns green.

Original Items that i wouldnt expect to see glow under blacklight are,

Photos
paperwork
medal ribbons.
If any of the above have the glow of a modern A4 sheet of paper under blacklight id be sending them back.

Plenty of threads on this.Put "Blacklight" in the search engine.

[613chad10]

Thanks for the help

[David Guist]

They can glow bright .I used to preach on this subject.If it glowed it was bad. But Me and my son went to a veterans house one day to look at some stuff.The veteran had alshimers or how ever it is spelled. So I delt with his wife. There was a nice piece of white cloth in the bunch with eagle and swaztica on it. They did not know or remember what it was or what it was for. Only that he had brought it back. So I count more on the detail and construction of items .The black light test is just a tool. Best regards.

[keifer kahn]

The burn test is in fact a "more" definitive test than the "Blacklight.

Polyester,which melts under flame,smells like burning plastic(which effectively it is) and leaves a hard uncrushable bead, was not invented till the 1950,s and was certainly not used as a clothing fabric before then.

Nylon which has similar characteristics to Polyester under flame was invented about 1938(im going off memory here)(as was the german version Perlon)but was used principally in the US to replace real silk in parachute production.Germans used their version for any where a hard wearing fibre was need(Scrubbing brushes, toothbrushes, etc).
Neither country used their versions in fabric for clothing or insignia during WW2.

So if it melts,thats probaly a really good indicator its bad.

[keifer kahn]

I rechecked my notes and infact Polyester was first invented in 1941 in the UK but complete development of it didnt occur till after WW2 finished.
It was in the US in 1952 that it was developed into a fabric totally suitable for clothing fabric.

[613chad10]

Thanks a lot, this will help

[Valter Gorenc]

There are reports and stories about original items really glowing, but I didn't see anyone yet (I didn't see a black hole yet, but I believe they do exist ) so i assume these are more an exception than a rule. Just to stay on a save side, I don't want any WW2 or earlier item that glows. Of course, there are fakes made from correct materials that do not glow, so just a UV negaitve test is not a proof of originality.
Well, many original items (white colors on medal ribbons in particular) do glow dully/mildly, but not nearly as much as a modern cloth. So when I check the stuff with blacklight, I always put it side by side with a modern white cloth for comparison. It's much more reliable than evaluate the "amount of glowing" of the item alone.

[keifer kahn]

Valter,

Thing is most collectors during their lifetime will only see a tiny percentage of what was originally produced,so the chance of never encountering a period produced item with a period produced glow would be expected.

I own only one item that has what would consider a "period" glow and that is a set of luftwaffe shoulder boards for a leutnant in Administration.The pink underlay glows the characteristic fluoro orange( as some panzer pinks do).
I own a flag that has spot cleaning done and the characteristic spot cleaning is evident under blacklight.This is what i would consider "induced" glowing.Its obvious that the effect is very different under blacklight compared to the modern whites associated with T shirts.
And as you do, I use of a modern white T shirt to compare "glows". I find this comparision quite accurate as the difference is very obvious,when it comes to "washed "items.

Back to panzer pinks, there are many threads that relate to this characteristic from Panzer insignia collectors and the glow is normally associated with use of Aniline dyes.

I too do not like items that glow and the majority of originals that i have encountered that do glow have been washed.