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**MauserKar98k** · 09-06-2009, 11:40 AM

Originally posted by MauserKar98k View Post

I think I might have left this one alone as well, but at least you did a fine job restoring it.

If it was my lid, I would at least take some white paint try to replicate the guy's name that used to be in the lid after it was restored. At least that way "Uffz. Bode" wouldn't be lost to history and would still be connected to this lid.

Just my 2 cents.

My mistake, I didn't realize that you didn't paint over the original name that was in the helmet. I do applaud you for that, and I am a "serious collector".

I think the reason why people are upset is the fact that there was so much original paint still on the lid. Yes, it may have been rusty and in relic condition, but the main consensus in this hobby is that original paint=do not restore. My personal rule of thumb is to not restore a lid unless it has less than 5% or so of what I consider original paint left on the helmet.

So while you did a great job of restoring this helmet, many will look upon it as a destroyed piece of history because a good deal of original paint was removed from it during restoration.

**Kurn** · 09-06-2009, 12:12 PM

Why do some think restoring a helmet or uniform or some firearms is "destroying" it, yet restoring a tank or aircraft is acceptable?Should the late Jaques Littlefield just left his Panther as is? Is it worth less restored and running than a rusted,bombed out hulk?

**coloradocowboy** · 09-06-2009, 12:18 PM

Originally posted by Kurn View Post

Why do some think restoring a helmet or uniform or some firearms is "destroying" it, yet restoring a tank or aircraft is acceptable?Should the late Jaques Littlefield just left his Panther as is? Is it worth less restored and running than a rusted,bombed out hulk?

ive thought about that too. Tanks are a lot like restoring cars. They have engines, transmissions, etc... that if they dont work it wont move. So even though your destroying some of the history it is a neccesary evil if its going to work

**ChrisCook** · 09-06-2009, 12:56 PM

Helmet

Originally posted by Kurn View Post

Why do some think restoring a helmet or uniform or some firearms is "destroying" it, yet restoring a tank or aircraft is acceptable?Should the late Jaques Littlefield just left his Panther as is? Is it worth less restored and running than a rusted,bombed out hulk?

Here is an example that may be easier...if I buy a Walther P38 that has say 50% bluing, and is mechanically fine, I'm going to leave it that way. It is functional, and the finish is original.

If I buy a Walther P38 that has 10% original finish, some rust pitting, and needs a new extractor and say replacement for a postwar magazine then I am going to refinish the gun, find an extractor and get a correct magazine for it.

As far as the helmet goes...I wouldn't have done what was done.....at the most I would have found an original liner on the band and switched out the liner. And, even that would be travesty to most folks. A friend of mine restored over a dozen or more helmets like this, they all had over 50% of the paint remaining, I wish I would have known beforehand... Chris....

**zeek** · 09-06-2009, 01:03 PM

Reminds me of a friend of mine who in 1971 found an early 40's harley. Back in 1970 when I got back from military, I rode with an onary bunch of bikers. My friend found an original 40's, full dress harley. Was stored for years. Much surface rust, torn leather, pitted chrome. 100% there, and original. He decided to upgrade. Tore the whole thing apart. Chopped, raked it, put on ape hangers, peanut gas tank etc. Deep 6th original parts. I pleated with him to sell it to me. No, he wanted a cool looking knuckle. 40 years later, where's his bike? Would all $ spent, have increased unaltered value, or desirability?
I could go on and on. Not to mention the many original helmets that were destroyed by my biker friends, painting club logo, large swastick, skull. Happy ending. I did manage to over pay my buddies for a few, good helmets. That are still in my collection today, or in some one elses.

Ending note: A helmet. Nice, not so nice, ugly, or relic, has only one shot at original. Once thats gone, its altered. And altered is where it will stay forever. But Jim did a really nice job on the restoration. For history's sake, too bad he didn't use an ebay special. low $, Norway. Zeek

**MaxxBrunn1938** · 09-06-2009, 01:11 PM

Jim,

I just want to say NICE JOB on your "Restoration" and belive me I know just how you feel about it and don't worry to much about these hard core collectors that are belittling you for DESTROYING them. I've restored a few items in my collection back to original German Issue due to what the post war countries did to them afterwards and have been Slapped around for it but I don't care. The way I see it , it's just like Restoring an old car or truck which I also do.
It amazes me how much Praise you recieve when you restore a vehical but God Help You if you restore a helmet, binos, or something else WW2.

Just my 2 Cents worth.

Joe

**SteelhelmJim** · 09-06-2009, 03:51 PM

Thanks Joe

**SteelhelmJim** · 09-06-2009, 04:01 PM

Zeek,

It was a low (relatively speaking) cost ebay special. The way some are acting you'd think I got it out of some old vet's attic.
In fact the person I bought it from had bought it a year previously on ebay. They needed money so they re-sold it. I'm surprised nobody here noticed it.
Maybe they did but it was too funky for them. Or maybe they thought it was a fake with postwar paint or something. Hell, it could have been postwar paint for all anyone knows.
I think maybe some folks just don't like restorers and restorations.

Jim

Jim

**helmuthunter** · 09-06-2009, 04:16 PM

Jim, you do have your place on this forum indeed and are entitled to your opinion, but i really doubt that you have any real respect for these items or history in general. This is only my opinion. Enjoy your military modeling

, Johnno.

**SteelhelmJim** · 09-06-2009, 04:24 PM

Chris,

To each his own, right? One man's eye candy is another man's eye sore. I think what I've done is save a decent M35 that would otherwise have gone to pot.
With the helmet, I have before and after photos, a list of where the original helmet parts were produced, and the name of the soldier the helmet belonged to; still intact on the helmet.
I restored the helmet to look almost exactly as it looked when Unteroffizier Bode had it issued to him. And it should be noted that the, possibly, field applied paint was covering his name. Either he or someone else had painted over it at some point. I have left his name and some of the paint that covered it on the helmet.
Personally, I feel that I have the best of both worlds: a nice restoration with authentic , recognisable, historic roots.
By the way, did you know that there are places on the White House where the old blackened areas caused by the British burning it in 1812 have been left intact. Not rebuilding the White House would have been absurd, but they wanted to leave a little of the blackened areas intact for history's sake.
I feel that's what I did with this helmet. And I think it's is a valid alternative to leaving it untouched.

Jim

**SteelhelmJim** · 09-06-2009, 04:50 PM

Oh Johnno,

This kind of backhanded, gentle, slam is not very becoming.
I have a huge knowledge of and respect for history. But collecting is not just about history. It's about business. If it was just about history, then you wouldn't have some of these helmets going for thousands of dollars. You wouldn't have scammers faking helmets to rip off bucks. And you wouldn't have the Chinese selling replicas.
If you want to do pure history, become a historian, or a curator in a museum. In fact, why don't we all just donate helmets we find to museums, or the Smithsonian Institute?
And why don't we attempt to bring the absurd price of German helmets down, by refusing to buy or sell at exorbitant prices?
Military modeling? C'mon. Modeling is about scaled down replicas. There is nothing scaled down about my helmet. And the repo parts are respectable copies of the originals.
Any historian will tell you that untouched is best, but restored is ok, as long as you provide as much attribution and provenance as is possible.
But an antique dealer will tell you that to alter is to devalue, in most, but not all, cases.
A dealer will also tell you that something may be nice to keep, even if an alteration has devalued it's monetary worth.
To each his own, and to thine own self be true.

**ApathyL** · 09-06-2009, 07:39 PM

Originally posted by helmuthunter View Post

Jim, you do have your place on this forum indeed and are entitled to your opinion, but i really doubt that you have any real respect for these items or history in general. This is only my opinion. Enjoy your military modeling

, Johnno.

exactly what I thought

. You can never compare an armored car, a tank a ship an aircraft nothing like that to a helmet. 2 different things. A helmet is a helmet. An iron cross is an iron cross. If you might read there is a dispute about repainted cores on iron crosses. Thats not restoring them either, but destroying them, as is the case with everything that is buggered.

**zeek** · 09-06-2009, 08:46 PM

Hay Jim. I think your resto lid is well done. Besides, its your helmet. Do with you want with it. Had you not shown before pic's, you'd be drowning in praise. Seems the gist of this thread has moved from a nice restoration job, to a debait on what to leave as is vs good restoration material.. With that said, doubt any ones opinions will change. Regardless. I run into the same delema when choosing a helmet for helmet art. I tend not to use a German helmet with any trace of original exterior finish. I feel original exterior paint, good, bad or ugly, has its place in history. Zeek

**Bill Hermann** · 09-06-2009, 10:04 PM

Jim, welcome to the forum. Your opinion is worth as much as anyone else here. You are no doubt proud of your work which I'm sure people in the hobby of re-creating helmets would appreciate. You will find though that here the vast majority of people who collect are very passionate about the historical significance of the items they collect and would see any alteration whatsoever as almost vandalism. As has been said in earlier posts once an item is changed it can never go back to it's original state. There is also only a finite number of untouched helmets left. The less original items left, the more the price is going to go up, simple supply and demand. I understand that not everyone has the means to afford (or want to afford) the prices the market dictates for these original pieces.
My collection is modest and I have to save to buy a piece but it's worthwhile when you can become a custodian of an original unaltered piece from a part of history that utterly fascinates you.
I think we all grow as collectors, I dug out a couple of decals when I was starting out, I'll probably never get over that now as a purist collector.
I also restore vintage cars (just got my 1922 Hudson on the road) and know that this is a different kettle of fish, machinery sometimes has to be restored to keep it in use thus keeping that sort of history alive.
Great to see someone else interested in WW2 history anyway, at least we keep the memory of the fallen alive as the 70th year passes. Regards, Bill

**ChrisCook** · 09-06-2009, 11:28 PM

Restoration

Hi Jim, yes, it is your helmet and you may do with it as you wish. I also understand that for those of us without deep pockets (myself included) restoring helmets are an OK alternative. I have at least half a dozen helmets that I have redone, but they were all helmets that had already been repainted and had no trace of original paint, and even a chromed biker helmet. They all came out well, as did yours.

There are other threads on this subject which you may find interesting, but it was once common practice to "treat" helmet leather, this is now taboo, and has most likely destroyed more helmet liners than has saved helmet liners. Also, it was once common practice to switch out liners (which I admit I have placed original liners and bands in helmets that had none present), now one of the first things that folks look for is signs of loose rivets indicating a replaced liner, if obvious it immediately devalues the helmet.

I collect firearms, turning a screw with the wrong screwdriver and damaging it, or using harsh cleaning methods can severely damage the value of a high dollar weapon. It's an easy point to make it.

In all honesty I can only judge your helmet by the photos you have shown, and to me it didn't look like it was that bad before you restored it. Also, unless severe humidity is present in your "war room" I doubt if it would have deteriorated further. That said it is ultimately your helmet, and your choice. I probably have a strong opinion on this subject as a friend of mine ruined (there is no other word) a large batch of helmets that had 50% or more of the original paint on each one, they all had liners that were in poor condition, but there were partial decals present, some had camo paint remains, all lost to history now as he has refinished about a dozen helmets, and to be honest they aren't well done. I would have been interested in any of the helmets beforehand if they had been offered to me, none of them interest me now....

There is a thread over on the "axis history forum" of restored reenactor helmets. Some of the helmets are top notch and very impressive in their restorations indeed. Although I am not a big time, or big dollar collector by any means, I have noticed that helmet collecting seems to evoke more "emotions" (best wasy I can put it) than almost any other subcategory of collecting IMO. Well, there is a lot of fakery in the firearms field, so there are a lot of strong feelings about restorations and outright fakery in that field as well.

Long response I know, not meaning to be critical, just sharing my take on it. Chris....

BTW...I have bought helmets with little to no paint left, and no helmet liner for the purpose of recreating an example of a period helmet, some have had crappy overpaint jobs done at one point or another, I always carefully strip off a small area of the top layer to see if they is any original paint underneath, if so I do a careful "restoration" by slowly (and it takes awhile) stripping off the overpaint to bring out the original paint. Some have came out quite nice, and there are examples of others on various forums where the buyer has been pleasantly suprised with the outcome.

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