"out-gassing".....

[bobcam1]

Hello, all.....
I need some guidance in understanding something, concerning "out-gassing". I have two medals (An EK1 and a SWB) that literally sat in their presentation boxes without being disturbed, for more than 50 years. They don't seem to have suffered any ill effects from being stored this way, and in fact they are both in stellar condition.
My question is this: I understand the science behind the PRINCIPLE of out-gassing, and the logic of not storing cases with medals makes sense on the surface, but how long would the two need to be in proximity to one another, before the metal or paint on a decoration would begin to show any degradation or deterioration?
I know that many of you have had items stored since the war in less than ideal conditions, yet they seem to have survived without appreciable damage. Are we, as collectors, now so environmental-conscious, that we may be overreacting slightly, to modern thought on this subject, or is it in fact, a genuine concern for the future of these items.
A friend who has seen some of the steps that I now take to preserve my collection, summed up the feeling that many people have by simply saying, "Jeez, that medal was in a box since the war, and it looks fine....Why fix it if it ain't broke?"
The logic of the science involved seems to escape me, when I am faced with the two examples that I own, and their seeming resistance to the out-gassing problem.

If someone could help me to understand, I'd be grateful.
(Thanks Stalhelm and Paul R.....(and Paul....Put.....a.....book.....together.....)

Cheers,
Bob.

[Stahlhelm]

Hi, Bob (and everyone else, as well):

I really appreciate questions like this, because they really reflect, in a very realistic way, some of the same frustrating thoughts I often have. I also know very well by now about all the logic behind "out-gassing". Like you, I know what it is, how it happens, what it is supposed to do to things, etc., etc. I also believe that it logically does occur, and it logically should have some negative effects on items which are "out-gassed-on", so to speak. It really does logically make good sense.

However, like you, I have also encountered more than a few such examples where collectors have stored their prized medals, awards, etc. in their original cases for decades as you say, without so much as a single adverse effect. The collectors who say they've done this have no reason to lie to me, and they furthermore have all the proof (in the excellent condition of their medals, etc.) that "out-gassing" has somehow not caused a single visible problem.

When I see and hear things like this, I often have the same frustrated thoughts as you. I can't help but stop and seriously reevaluate everything that I do to avoid the gas. I can't help but immediately think of the sacrifices in the better display and presentation of my own collection I continue to make. I can't help but felel a bit like I'm unnecessarily cheating myself out of what I really want to do--simply display a nice cased award in its original case!

Of course, it always seems more ironic and disappointing to pay the extra money for a nice award with its original case, and then have to seperate the two from one another, as if they are contagious, or as if one may contaminate the other. With requirements like that, I usually feel that I'd be better off not buying awards with cases and saving the extra money, especially since I can't display them together anyway. Currently, I have my awards in one case and their cases in another. What sense does that make from an aesthetic, display point of view? What sense does that make for the extra money I've spent for the two? Buying cased medals, in this case (no pun intended) actually creates more of a problem than anything else. When I show people the medals in one case, and they look at the cases in another case, they always ask why the metals are here and the cases there? Then, I always have to go through the whole dreaded lesson about the dangers of case materials, period glues, papers, etc, and yes, finally "out-gassing" as well.

So, everytime I see medals that carefree collectors have enjoyed storing and displaying in their cases for decades with no ill effects, I want to pull my hair out. I begin to feel like a fool who is somehow cheating myself out of the joys of more satisfying display and storage. I mean, to use a verse from a popular song, "If birds fly over the rainbow, why oh why can't I?" I'm beginning to feel like the only Bumblebee in the nest who can't fly only because he thinks too much about how big his body is compared to his wings.

As a great example, I recently purchased I beautiful, near mint medal. Yes, the collector has stored and displayed this medal in its original box for the last ten years, and yes the medal and box still look as mint as they've always looked. So, now that I have it, I'm now ironically considering, as is my routine, to seperate them from one another, in such a way that they don't display as well, and ironically deprive myself of the joys that other collectors have enjoyed before me with this medal that has emerged from its past in mint condition. Hmmmmm. That's a real mouthful that sums up the greatest irony of this whole "out-gassing" issue. At this point, I'm about ready to fly "over the rainbow" with all the rest of those birds and leave my troubles behind, melting like lemondrops. That's where you'll find me!

Having said all that, I must stress that none of the above rant is in any way meant to diminish the importance of "out-gassing" concerns or "out-gassing" advice given by others. I know most of the frustrations are mutual anyway. After so many medal-in-case-displaying collector success stories, I, like you, am only looking for an answer which expains this tested, contradicting reality. I am also reevaluating all the sacrifices I make myself while others make no sacrifices with no problems. The truth is that the success stories of so many collectors who store medals in cases, after a point, becomes just as much of a tested scientific fact as any result from a lab. Every cased medal I've ever bought has been a carefully selected example that is in exceptional condition. Every one of those medals in excellent condition was stored in its original case for many years before by the previous collector. Hmmmmmm. I could go on and on with this, but I'm sure you know what I'm thinking.

Chris

P.S. As a final frustrating thought, again I'm sure there are just as many lab results to support the opposing argument for all of the above. So, maybe I'll just flip a coin.

[Paul R.]

Bobcam1 & Chris, Thanks Chris for you thoughts on this.
I'll try not to get to technical or too long winded. Just a few things to keep in the back of your mind. First off nothing escapes time. Just because we may not see out gassing, or the ill effects of it. That does not mean nothing is going on with an item. Sometimes it happens ever so slowly over a long period of time. Just like ourselfs. Then bam all of a sudden it happens. Yes, there are cases were to the naked eye all is well, and then the item display some wear. Yes, those display boxes will break down ever so slow. The paper the boxes were made of the glue, lead poor construction and the enviroment all play a part in the survival of an item. Remember a plated or painted item will show wear. Lead in the painted item will accelerate the deteriation processes. Why play Russian roulette with you collection. I would rather be a bit over protective and proactive than scramble later. Remember there war was going on. Production corners were cut all over the place. Back then conservation was not a priority and was un heard of. Paul

[John F.]

I know that many of you have had items stored since the war in less than ideal conditions, yet they seem to have survived without appreciable damage. Are we, as collectors, now so environmental-conscious, that we may be overreacting slightly, to modern thought on this subject, or is it in fact, a genuine concern for the future of these items.

Cheers,
Bob.

Yes!

I’ve read several of these thread about conservation and the proper way to store, display, mount, ect and think the same thing that you have stated that many of these "items have been stored since the war in less than ideal conditions, yet they seem to have survived without appreciable damage". How can you possibly enjoy collecting if you are so worried about storage, humidity level, temperture, out-gassing, non-acid paper, etc. It's like those people who own a classic car but never drive it out of fear that something may happen to it. Another thing with the price of gas, groceries, and basic necessities who has the additional disposable income to spend on such conservation items? I'd rather take that money a buy another medal. I have been colecting for about 20 years and have used these simple rules to "perserve" my collection.

1. Never bend or straighten anything metallic in an attempt to restore it to its original condtion.

2. Limit the handling of your pieces and always wash your hand before you do

3. Store your collection in a climate controlled environment, meaning a house that has air conditioning and heat.

4. If you must attempt to clean anything metallic use a soft damp cloth. If that doesn't work repeat using a small dab of mild dish soap, and dry thoroughly with a hair dryer set on low. If that doesn't work don't clean it.

5. If you must clean a cloth item such as a uniform take it to a company that specializes in the treatment and storing of wedding gowns, furs, etc (they do other items too). If you can not finds such a company contact a local museum and ask them who the use to clean there cloth items. For smaller item like ribbons, gently hand wash in a bowl of cold water with a small amount of Woolite.

6. Keep items out of direct sunlight.

7. Never buy items that already have the effects of time ie...corrosion, rust, dry rot, etc.

8. Never ever store your items in a saltwater fish aquarium...of course I am joking.

I have been following these simple rules for several years, and displaying my item in an open air display case with a 40 watt spot light. I display most of my items in simple Riker Mounts, and store the rest in plastic/vinyl pouches lockied in a two drawer legal size filing cabinet and have never had any problems with my collection.

One last thought...nothing last forever. Let museums worry about the preservation of history (that what they do) and enjoy your collection and take care of it with simple tatics and common sense and they will last your lifetime.

Best,
John

[bobcam1]

John,
I think that you've voiced what a LOT of others are thinking...."How can you possibly enjoy collecting if you are so worried about storage, humidity level, temperture, out-gassing, non-acid paper, etc.".....

Indeed!...I certainly don't begrudge those who wish to take extraordinary measures to conserve their collections, but I have to confess that although I understand the science of preservation, I prefer to take basic, sensible precautions and concentrate on the pleasure that my collection gives and probably will CONTINUE to give to me for the NEXT fifty years....

Cheers,
Bob.

[Stahlhelm]

As far as controlling humidity, wearing cotton gloves, keeping things on and within newly-introduced acid-free materials, etc., etc., I am a die-hard collector in full compliance. Humidity, for example, is a surely-proven catalyst for deterioration and corrosion. There is, beyond a doubt, acids and oils in human fingers which no doubt will eventually etch their way into even the toughest of collectibles. There are, of course, simply no doubts about those issues. They are proven facts and, yes, I will continue to protect my collection from them. I will, however, not worry about them, simply because I am doing what it takes to deal with them. Concern and precautions taken to protect a piece against known dangers is just the most commonsense thing any of us can do. However, the main thing here that I have ongoing issue with is the ironic noneffect that such period cases seem to be having on so many of the pieces which I have personally examined. This is just one particular issue that isn't quite keeping with its expectations, as much as I don't even understand why.

Here's the point. I will give anything the benefit of the doubt, especially when it gives me cause for greater enjoyment of my collection, within my lifetime. I will give myself relief from conservation hardships whenever possible, and whenever I see that there is evidence to support it, no matter how uncanny or illogical it may be. However, I am still currently NOT displaying and/or storing any of my awards, etc. in their original cases. I will, however, cautiously continue to consider and weigh more evidence as I encounter it in the laboratory of carefree collectors the world over. No, I will not let my collection be the lab guinea pig, but I will sure happily gather the evidence from those collectors who do continue pioneering the studies.

Cautiously conservative and always open to doubt and change,

Chris

[John F.]

Chris,

If your niche in collecting is conservation then more power to you. What is funny is that most peoples single biggest investment is their house but we keep that outside exposed to the elements, so why are you going to worry about a $100 medal if it is stored in it's orginal box?

John

[WhitePhantom]

I actually avoid buying medals/badges that come in their original box because of the out gassing problem. I rather display the medal on its own and not in the box anyways. The presentation cases take up more room then just the medal itself and at this point space is limited (unless my parents allow me to put a display case somewhere else in the house).

I have a 40yr faithful service award w/ presentation case and for now its stored inside its box. I'm still waiting for my acrylic stands from ebay. I also found a glass supplier that sells plexiglass so I may set up my own little acrylic board covered in 100% cotton velvet to lay the medals on. Then display the acrylic board with medals inside my display case.

I have some U.S. medals with cases and will probably sell the cases as they are the newer boxes. I'm awaiting a silver wound badge and it has the original paper packet and I might try to sell that in the near future as I dont need or want it. Storing the paper packet would become too much of a hassle for me.



JR

[Stahlhelm]

John:

Okay, well first of all, John, conservation is not my "niche in collecting". I'm actually much more complex than that. A reasonable amount of conseravation concern in one's "niche" is only intelligent.

Secondly, your analogy comparing militaria to a house is, in my opinion, more like a contrast than a comparison. That's like comparing apples and cows, or perhaps something even less similar.

Thirdly, if you read my posting above, you will see that I am not actually worried about anything. I am only reasonably concerned about some proven things and, beyond that, I remain skeptical. For example, in the case of storing medals in their cases, I don't worry about it, I just don't currently do it. That, in itself, eliminates any need to worry. I did say that I currrently do store them out of their boxes, but I am considering otherwise, as I consider the whole issue. Also, I never "worry" about any such things which can be controlled; I just control them and move on. It's the things that I can't control that I worry about.

Finally, why did you choose to think that I am only dealing with medals which cost a mere $100.00? I am actually concerned about individual medals which cost a minumum of $4,000.00 in some cases; and yes, I do have more than one of such value and beyond. So, the truth is, John, I could probably buy a house with the total value of my collection which I would then concern myself with protecting as much as I do with my militaria.

I don't mean to be disrespectful myself or anything, John. That is not my intention at all, and I apologize in advance if my response seems at all rude. Maybe I'm just reading your message to me the wrong way, and being too sensitive. Again, I apologize if I misunderstand your meaning. I have no reason to do anything but have a peaceful, respectful debate in which we can all learn from one another.

Chris

[John F.]

Chris,

No umbrage taken. The house comparison was meant to be funny, and no there is nothing wrong with wanting to preserve your collection. Look at it this way, life is tough and we turn to hobbies as a way to escape and to find pleasure. With that in mind why would you want to make something enjoyable, painful by worrying about something that may or may not happen? Like I said, if you take a few precautionary measures and a common sense approach to handeling and storing your colection you will not only preserve that which you cherish you will do so without all the pain and suffering that comes from worrying.

I would be intersted in what the guys on the Case & Packet forum have to say about this subject.

Best,
John

[Stahlhelm]

Hi, John:

I agree with what you say above, and thanks also for the clarification.

You also have a good idea that I had not yet considered. I would also be very interested to know what the collectors on the "Case and Packet" forum have to say about this. It does seem that their experience-based knowledge with the issue would be of great use. I'm sure there are any number of others there who can say what they do in this case, and what results, if any, they've seen.

Thanks for a new idea!

Chris

[Stahlhelm]

Well, for some reason my post above originally posted here again. So, I'm first replacing some of this space with a fast explanation. I just can't stand seeing something I typed appear twice for no reason.

I'll also respond to some of JR's comments above, while I'm at it. Yes, I agree 100%, JR! The case storage issue is also a problem for me perse. My space to display and store my collection is limited as well. Currently, I have my nice-conditioned cases in separate display cases. So, I effectively have a display case displaying nothing but...cases. This takes up double the display case and space area I have for my collection! For those who would suggest storing the cases out of sight somewhere, that is not an option for me. You see, no matter what, I have a persistent need to actually display, in sight, everything that I have. For me, out of sight is nearly the same as not having at all, in my visual-oriented mind. Besides, the cases are also interesting visually; they're just, of course, much more interesting displaying their intendend medal or award.

Also, when people look at my collection, they at first always think that I also collect empty medal and award cases. That's another frustrating thing I have to explain to everybody.

So yes, JR, I do also agree with you totally! The space issue, in itself, is another problem about as big as everything else. It also doesn't help me to realize that I'm always paying extra for a bigger problem.

Chris

[Paul R.]

Yes, I also have a collection. Yes, I do have it properly stored. No I'm not over obcessed with the storage of items. Yes, I do display my items, but I rotate my collection not leaving an item out too long. As far as I am concerned. It's each to their own ways or divices. Yes, I do take care of my house as well.
As I have stated before I am offering my first hand advice and conservation experience for free. I don't care if anyone uses a staple gun to hang up a uniform display. Or if they leave the SS DD helmet outdoors. or they use uncle jacks majic cleaner on items to save a few bucks. There is a lot of strange things in the field of conservation and things that people do not understand, or will understand and that's fine with me.

[Stahlhelm]

As is typical of me, I offer my very conservative advice, so-to-speak, on conservation, always with an equal bias towards doubt whenver doubt can be reasonably had. After all, I have learned some of the greatest things I know being doubtful. As usual, I test the limits, consider all the facts, large and small, no matter how illogical or logical they may be, all the while being as careful as possible about everything. Well, that's another mouthful that pretty well sums it all up again, as general as it may be.

I guess you could say, in a nutshell, that I'm a careful, conservative conservator, who also likes to be the Devil's advocate, at least for the sake of argument and further learning. He who questions others and explains oneself is ultimately the best learner and teacher combination out there. That is what I endeavor to be both here and in my real teaching profession. No, I certainly don't know everything yet (), but I'm surely learning like the rest of us. I'll teach what I know, I'll learn what I can, revise the facts when necessary, and be friends with all who peacefully contribute to the process.

Chris

P.S. Although much of the above may be so general that it says little of anything really, it did just seem like the most appropriate response at the time. Sometimes being general is the most specific thing you can do.

[bobcam1]

Almost all that I know about collection conservation has come from both Paul and you, Chris.....
I take what works for me, and use it, and file the rest away for when I may need it in the future. I'm appreciative of ALL the information that is given here, and at various points in my collecting life, I may or may not use all of it.

Time will tell.....

It will be a lot easier if Paul takes my advice that I keep giving to him.....

(Paul.....Put.....a.....book.....together.....)

Gratefully,
Bob.