82nd airborne, 307th engineers camouflaged helmet

[kenbent]

Hi guys,

I recently got this awesome paratrooper's helmet and thought I'd share it with you guys before showing the bigger part of my collection (still working on it).

This one's a real beauty. Recovered in Colmar (France), this fully original 307th engineer helmet has its hand painted Mickey Mouse camouflage. That's my favorite part of the helmet.

I equipped it with an original chin strap/cup (chamois lined) and the liner's chin strap (carr united, Id'ed).

Its liner was discovered intact but has some damage (all in all it's still in a pretty good condition).
Its red/white diamonds are there, and the liner itself wears it too (only one, on the front).

Its cotton chin straps were still in place when it was recovered, thank god they were.

Anyway, more pics are to come once I show you the complete collection so far in the near future.

Does anyone know if there are any others recovered? I only know one other, the major's 307th of Michel De Trez.

Hope you enjoy it (sorry for the light exposure! I'll make sure it won't happen next time I take pics).

[kenbent]

You probably can't see the pictures? My mistake, Skydrive shared them with friends only.

Well, here they are! I included one of the liner as well.
Hope you like!

[Bob Carter]

You may want to move this to the US forum section and discuss it, I see several problems with this helmet unfortunately that would indicate it's a fake.

[kenbent]

What would be your concern?

[kenbent]

Liner is initialed I.F.

[Bob Carter]

Can we get close-up pics of the straps on the helmet (as well as the male snaps), ans some shots of the liner interior ? I'll elaborate my concerns after I see these, but there are several issues I see based on the pics you've already posted.

[kenbent]

Dear Bob,

Pics arrived!

Now, I included an extra pic of original and repro webbing. You'll find out that the chin strap webbing is just fine. Woven on an original WWII spool.

Male snaps are also to be found in Michel De Trez' 'American Paratrooper Helmets', page 16. This is a BRASS snap, so it's ok because the helmet is an M1C.

This compared to the M2s which have chrome snaps.

Left Original webbing, right fake webbing



Webbing on the 307 M1C:



This close shows ok stitching in pairs of 2.

Note that this is a very close picture but it does have a correct zigzag stitching pattern.

As to be seen here:



Male brass snaps:



Liner:



About the initials, I did some further research.

The letters are not I.F. but L.F. (they aren't capital letters).
I checked all L.F. pvts of 307AEB.

This helmet was found in Colmar, but the entire regiment was never there. A platoon of Charlie company was however attached to the 504PIR during the attack on Colmar as engineering assistance.

One L.F. pvt in C company: Fred Leys.
Big chance that it was his!

About the painting: I'm convinced that it's its original finish.

Other information:
Shell: Mc cord, front seam, swivel bale

Cheers

[Bob Carter]

This liner appears to be a small buckle Westing house (postwar if real) and not an Inland - wrong color A frames. Mickey Mouse Camo was not used on swivel bale helmets . These chinstraps are fake, your comparing them to other fakes which just aren't as good of quality and the bar-taking is wrong as well. I don't mean to be harsh and I hope others come forward on their opinions as well but there's nothing I see that I like. As for anyone in the 307th with the initials L.F. there are actually 4 that I came up with ironically all from B Co.:

Lawrence Fainelli - KIA 10/31/44 Holland
Loyal Farris
Lamar Foreman
Lylywllyn Forney - KIA 10/10/43 Salerno

I honestly wouldn't use DeTrez's Helmet book as your reference, there are some nice helmets in there but there are also known fakes.

[kenbent]

This liner appears to be a small buckle Westing house (postwar if real) and not an Inland - wrong color A frames. Mickey Mouse Camo was not used on swivel bale helmets . These chinstraps are fake, your comparing them to other fakes which just aren't as good of quality and the bar-taking is wrong as well. I don't mean to be harsh and I hope others come forward on their opinions as well but there's nothing I see that I like. As for anyone in the 307th with the initials L.F. there are actually 4 that I came up with ironically all from B Co.:

Lawrence Fainelli - KIA 10/31/44 Holland
Loyal Farris
Lamar Foreman
Lylywllyn Forney - KIA 10/10/43 Salerno

I honestly wouldn't use DeTrez's Helmet book as your reference, there are some nice helmets in there but there are also known fakes.

I appreciate your opinion. But if something's original it's this.
You'll have to do a bit more research though.
I compared the straps with 3 other originals and I have an exact match.

Camouflage painting techniques were done on any kind of helmet. Only M2? That's looney talk!
Most M2s weren't even used in Normandy anymore and there were loads of camo helmets post Normandy, most of Michel De Trez' camo helmets are M1C's and he owns the biggest paratrooper collection in the world. So it would be mad not to use his book as a reference.

As for Fred Leys, check the site www.327th.org or www.ww2-airborne.us he's on there (roll of honour, KIA Germany 1945) --> Charlie company.

As for the liner being post war: a post war liner in a front seam helmet, found in Europe? Well that requires further explanation...?
I know these helmets don't grow on trees, but real collectors will definitely agree on its originality.

Cheers

[Tom Kibler]

this liner appears to be a small buckle westing house (postwar if real) and not an inland - wrong color a frames. Mickey mouse camo was not used on swivel bale helmets . These chinstraps are fake, your comparing them to other fakes which just aren't as good of quality and the bar-taking is wrong as well. I don't mean to be harsh and i hope others come forward on their opinions as well but there's nothing i see that i like. As for anyone in the 307th with the initials l.f. There are actually 4 that i came up with ironically all from b co.:

Lawrence fainelli - kia 10/31/44 holland
loyal farris
lamar foreman
lylywllyn forney - kia 10/10/43 salerno

i honestly wouldn't use detrez's helmet book as your reference, there are some nice helmets in there but there are also known fakes.

+1

[Bob Carter]

Wow, sorry I tried to help - If your other three helmets have the same straps you may want to show them for discussion as well because there probably also fake - I've brought this thread up for discussion in the US forum section of the WAF and you may want to look at it for others opinions.
I've studied this stuff for over 35 years, but I'm always open to learning something new and tapping into other peoples experience and knowledge, I don't mean this as any kind of attack but after viewing your last statement I think you're going to have a very hard time separating real relics from the sea of crap.

[Jean-Loup]

"most of Michel De Trez' camo helmets are M1C's and he owns the biggest paratrooper collection in the world. So it would be mad not to use his book as a reference. "


Dont know about this helmet, but your way of thinking can only lead you into big trouble.

[kickoffred]

307th

I am not sure why there is some much wear to the liner insignia. Every stencilled liner I have seen never shows this much wear, looks artificially worn, and why on the front and not on both sides like the helmet. I am not a fan of the helmet. As Bob said, too many what ifs about it. I have seen his helmets and they are some of the finest around. And he has been collecting airborne before it came into popularity. Paul

[kenbent]

Ok guys, appreciate your opinions and remarks.

But I really don't think there's anything wrong to it.
You'd probably immediately change your mind if you saw it yourselves.
I've spent a lot of time studying it myself (comparing, researching, etc.)

I can only come to the conclusion that it is good.
About the camouflage. I've seen plenty of swivels (good ones) camouflaged. Production of the fixed ones was completely over in 43 and the MM camo was just introduced in Sicily? It was used by troopers throughout the war, even on swivels.

As for the liner, take a look at it. It's not a Westinghouse, not an Inland.
It's a Firestone, modified by McCord circa 1943.
The liner itself is camouflaged as well but most of it faded away wearing it.
Stencils were quite often painted on the front of it, even on shells (29th infantry e.g. so I don't see the problem there.) Especially on the liner. A lot of liners do however have them on both sides.

Well that's just my opinion. Just keep in mind that not every helmet has been screwed up. This one just survived somehow.
Cheers

[Bob Carter]

I have a bridge for sale you may be interested in , You state you don't think anythings wrong - problem is everything is wrong. The liner as you state it is a post-war conversion. Hawley, St.Clair, Inland, and Westinghouse(cast buckle) are the ONLY airborne liners used in WWII. As for the liner stencilling I've NEVER seen an airborne helmet with the stencil incorrectly placed on the front and I'd love to see a period photo of one if it ever existed - INFANTRY units put their divisions insignia on the front of their helmets (not Airborne Regimental or Battalion markings).
If you like you're helmet - enjoy it , but when it comes time to sell unless you find someone like yourself that defends a relic based on emotion you'll realize that this is a complete fake. If you still have the opportunity to return this creation, I'd exercise it.