HSF badge Schwerin

[anguspm]

Hi,

Looking for a bit more information on the Schwerin High Seas Fleet badge. (Tim's badge on the E-stand got me thinking about it).

As a relatively novice collector I've had conflicting reports as to what is genuine and what is not and it all concerns the Bridge windows. I've been told :

a) All 5 Windows should be the same
b) It's not genuine unless the furthest left window is partially obscured.
c) Some of the copies have the window flaw.
d) If it has the window flaw it is a copy.

So as you can see I've had some conflicting answers!!

Thanks in advance for any help you guys might be able to give.

Regards,

Angus

[Mark S.]

On some Schwerin HSF badges, there is a weak strike on the bridge window all the way to the left. It isnt missng completely, as there is a shadow of a window still evident. This is a normal, accepted variant of this makers HSF badge, and seems to be restricted to the early tombac ones.

At some point in time, someone decided to cast a fake of this badge, and as luck would have it, they used the "4 window" variety as a master. When they made their mold however, the 1st window completely disappeared.

When people noticed that there was a fake HSF out and about, the most obvious feature was that it only had 4 windows. To people not in the know, this cast doubt on all Schwerin HSF badges that didnt have 5 distinct windows. They became a pariah of sorts, as people were just more comfortable with something they KNEW was real, than risk a variant. You can thank the members of this forum (about 2 years ago) for unraveling the mystery and provided the points I summarised here.

You have to realize that the windows are just one point in several to consider when trying to authenticate a Schwerin HSF. You cant just use the number of windows as a yes/no. It should also be noted that this window issue was fixed, as recent fakes sport all five windows.

Below is a real Schwerin HSF, with the weak bridge window.

[Mark S.]

a close up of the bridge area

[anguspm]

Thanks!

It seems like the people I had been talking to had swung to the thinking that it HAD to have the weak strike for it to be genuine.

As I said a novice after information, just got to be careful about the source of the information!

Regards,

Angus

[Frank Heukemes]

Dear Angus,

And here you have in contrast an original Schwerin HSF badge with all 5 windows present.

Cheers, Frank H.

[Frank Heukemes]

...but even more attention has to be paid to the maker´s mark. Use the search function with "HSF" and check out older threads where this mark was discussed and where the differences compared to fake marks were pointed out. This is the reverse of the badge shown above.

[Mike Kenny]

Hi,

A quick addition to Mark's initial response. I have acquired a genuine example in which the left hand window IS almost completely absent - even less definition than on Paul Massucci's example (for those who are fimiliar with it). Also, I don't believe this is a variant as such (ie implying more than one set of dies) but is more indicative of a period of manufacture. After studying the badge in detail, I firmly believe that Schwerin only ever had one set of dies for their HSF badge and that these dies were worn through use/production and repaired or worked on at various stages. The weak left hand window is only found on genuine tombak examples. I agree with all of Marks' other comments though.

Regards
Mike K

[anguspm]

Thanks for all the help guys, much appreciated.

I kinda get the feeling that if you ask about a particular aspect of authenticating a badge you open a bigger can of worms than you had to start with!!!

Good to see that everyone has their own different methods and combining factors which determine originality. I think to be on the safe side I'll figure out in advance which particular badge I'm after and print the relevant pages to take with me. I can't see myself remembering everything just yet!

I guess I'll miss out on those "bargains" which abound but for every real one I'd probably end up with ten copies/fakes/private purchase/collector editions so I'll be saving in the long run.

Thanks again for your time.

Angus.

[skip]

Hi all,

I´m afraid I must dispute what Mike says about only the Tombak pieces having the weak bridge window.
I´ve got a zinc piece were the bridge window was clearly very weak, under magnification you can see that the badge has been laid back in the die and restamped, from this all the windows are sort of doubled.
I´ll try doing a scan later when I´m at home, but unfortunatly my scans are not the best.

Skip

[stogieman]

Re: windows

I'll try and post a close-up of the bridge windows on mine tonight as well. Might as well get multiple examples up.

[Adrian]

Hello All,

Did Schwerin make the HSF badge in brass at any time??

Best regards,
Adrian.

[Tim Calvert]

Here's another 5 window badge for you.....

[Mike Kenny]

Hi,

For Adrian, Schwerin made tombak HSF badges - tombak and brass looking very similar and being similar alloys. They also made zinc badges, which I believe are of later war manufacture.

For Skip, I can't comment until you've had time to load the image but I will state that there is a difference betweem double striking and a weakly defined left window. It's also impossible to say whether the weaker of the double strikings was made first or second - ie was the badge "softly" struck first (for whatever reason) or was the badge struck first with good definition and ghosting result from a second "soft" strike (again, for whatever reason). I can think of valid reasons for both striking orders. I'm curious to find out whether your zinc example shows evidence of double striking over the entire obverse of the badge or whether the double striking seems to be confined to a certain region. From what I've seen so far, the latter seems to be the case but the region best showing the double-striking varies from badge to badge.

I have Schwerin HSF badges in both zinc and tombak on which the bridge window region has been double struck, however on the zinc badge all five windows are well formed from the hard strike whereas on my tombak example the left hand window, even after the second strike and resulting ghosting, looks like a narrow slit (more like an eye really) and is not well defined and to me indicates that the dies at the time of striking this particular tombak example were showing evidence of wear and possibly repair. So at this stage I'll stand by my statement that only tombak badges had the weakly formed left hand window.

Regards
Mike K

[Tim B.]

All These Gun Barrels Pointing At Me...

Had to shoot back
Tim

[skip]

How do you all manage to do these amazingly clear scans?, I tried to do mine but it is a mass of shadows and blurs so that you cannot see the detail of the restrike.

skip