Assmann Imperial U boat badge.....

[Steve 5]

Gentlemen, managed to pick this up, an Imperial replacement U Boat badge, based upon our findings here with regards hardware, i.e. the "spindly" pin and civilian badge style hinge seen on Naval WB's and other Imperial badges associated with the firm Assmann who IMO most likely produced this badge, this piece exhibits the typical "curl" "C" catch seen on many an Assmann badge......comments/discussion please..........probably made in the 1960's ?
Interesting fact I learnt while researching this badge, that it is believed the first produced badges in 1918 had their wreaths factory painted green !
Prost ! Steve.

[Borzadow]

Steve, can you post some zooms of the hardware ??

[Nigel N]

Hi Steve!
A nice looking piece isn't it!!!
I think both S&L and Souval also made these, and a nice compare between the different makers would be great to see someday!!
The earliest Assmann 57 pinbacks have a wartime type of setup, with thicker needle pin, and round wire catch, while the later pieces have S&L thick flat wire catch, open hingeblock etc. so I can only guess this style of hardware would fit somewhere inbetween??
-Nigel

[Steve 5]

Steve, can you post some zooms of the hardware ??

Its not in hand yet, still in the post, I will post close up images of the badge including its hardware when received...........
Nigel, this piece appears to have the same hardware as the "massive" (solid backed) award you showed in the air gunners badge thread, see below, I will be able to compare rear hardware comparison better in hand.
Prost ! Steve.

[Steve 5]

St u L do indeed make this badge, I show below an example a late production piece with large "C" catch and later pin and open hinge block, this piece recently sold on a well known dealer site, albeit rather expensive for a late piece i also show a page from St u L catalogue....
Not sure re Souval, I hope Alex will either confirm production or better still show us one
Prost ! Steve.

[Brig]

Were there a lot of '57er' Imperial awards? I got a BWB stickpin in the mail the other day that was sold by a seller who had multiple 57 stickpins, and was surprised that when it arrived, it was the Imperial pattern (must have just grabbed one from his box, site depicted the 57er style). It has that 57er look and feel to it...paint, etc.

[Nigel N]

I think virtually the full range of Imperial awards were made again in post WW2 years, S&L certainly made a large selection of Imperial/ Freikorps and Weimar medals and badges in the 50's & 60's!
-Nigel

[Brig]

So a lot of what guys are chalking off as repros, or at least did a few years back, were possibly these authorized post-WWII productions

[Steve 5]

So a lot of what guys are chalking off as repros, or at least did a few years back, were possibly these authorized post-WWII productions

Exactly !
I have seen it happen not only here but on many forums......ignorance, until we came along
see post 262 here http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ad.php?t=38109
Prost ! Steve.

[speedytop]

Hi Brig,

So a lot of what guys are chalking off as repros ... were possibly these authorized post-WWII productions

No!

There was and is no authorized production of not original decorations.
Authorized by whom? The government/the ministry? No, never!
Authorized by the different manufacturing companies? No, there was only the concession, to make money!

It was and is not forbidden, to produce not original Imperial decorations as copies (with visible differences). The new production started early in the 50s. But not only for Imperial decorations, it was the same for the Third Reich decorations, "Originale wie verliehen!" > original pieces as awarded. And the production of these pieces with Nazi symbols was not allowed. But several manufacturers did it. And it was largely ignored by the authorities.

All that long before the German law from 1957, several years!

Without the law from 1957 and the allowance, to wear several Third Reich decorations in a changed design, we would call all these pieces made post May 1945, the Imperial, the Weimarer and the Third Reich pieces without Nazi symbols, as not originals (Kopien/copies > repros), without a problem.

Only the existence of the very special German decorations, that we call in the short form 57er, lead to the curious construction, to use another words and adventurous paraphrases for these not original pieces.

Please, everybody can collect whatever he want to collect.

But it should be better, when we all use correct descriptions.

Uwe

[Borzadow]

Uwe, that's only a words. Don't be seized so - one more time.


I think that we have talked about it here so many times that this disscussion is closed. IMO.

[Norm F]

Without the law from 1957 and the allowance, to wear several Third Reich decorations in a changed design, we would call all these pieces made post May 1945, the Imperial, the Weimarer and the Third Reich pieces without Nazi symbols, as not originals (Kopien/copies > repros), without a problem.

Only the existence of the very special German decorations, that we call in the short form 57er, lead to the curious construction, to use another words and adventurous paraphrases for these not original pieces.

Hi Guys,

I know these discussions about what is and is not a "fake" are contentious and sometimes get quite heated so I preface my comments by saying please don't interpret anything I say as being against the collecting post-WW2 Imperial items.

I think Uwe has a point worth some careful consideration. If a swastika-bearing WW2 style award is made in 1955 by Souval or S&L or anyone else and a German veteran buys one to replace his wartime award - whether legal or not - I think most current collectors would still call that a "fake" award. You could argue it was a "post-war replacement award" but it wasn't actually bestowed upon that individual or officially sanctioned by a government agency like the PK/LDO system during the war so most collectors just call it a "fake" or the kinder term "reproduction".

So if a WW1 award is made at the same time as that post-war swastika award and sold to sextagenarian WW1 veteran (if that market continued to exist to any substantial degree) is it any less "fake" than the swastika-bearing WW2-style award? They're certainly not worn by members of the Bundeswehr or recognized in any government issued documents to my knowledge.

Perhaps if we drop the word "fake" with its negative connotations and used the term "reproduction" it's actually a good term here. We buy reproduction paintings and decorate our home with reproductions all the time -- no problem there.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Skyhawk]

Hi All,

First, let me say @ Steve; cool badges and thanks for showing. Second, I think all have stated good points regarding "descriptions" . We all have our own take, and standardization or full agreement from all collectors will probably never occur.

My Militaria collecting description system:

* Piece 'O Crap: usually modern, could also be called fake or a reproduction in certain situations. Did someone say eBay..........?? In the end, just a piece of crap!

* Fake: produced to deceive and could be from almost any era, old or modern. Can be quite close to the original in many characteristics. Deception is key to a fake for me.

* Reproduction: produced not to deceive, however as a copy possibly for veteran replacement, the collector's market, etc. A reproduction can be very close to the authentic piece or there can be distinct differences. I agree with Norm and in my wacky world the Imperial U Boat pieces would be reproduction pieces. I consider my S&L produced in the early 60's Imperial style EKI a reproduction piece. I do believe there are many "levels" of reproduction pieces.

* 57er Award: had a swaz in the TR form, and now does not. A true changed form decoration per the German Medal Law of 1957.

* Authentic: the real deal, produced at the right time, by the right makers, with the right characteristics. Also known as original pieces.

What really screws things up is the interchange of fake and reproduction. A reproduction can be used to deceive or for a deceptive purpose and thus becomes a fake. For me, a fake is always bad, while a reproduction can be very good!

Throw in all of the different native languages that we speak, local nuances, and cultural differences and the discussion becomes a mess and often contentious!

How about we all enjoy the hobby, work together to further the knowledge base, be respectful of each other, and just have a damn good time!

Best,

Jeff

[Alex W.]

Steve; that is a beautiful U-boat badge.
It's also pictured in my S&L catalogue.
From what I know Souval never produced this badge. It seems that S&L focused on the Imperial/Weimar post war made pieces, while Souval mostly kept it's focus on third reich items. None of my Souval price listings show any Imperial/Weimar post war pieces.

Best regards,
Alex

[Steve 5]

Steve, can you post some zooms of the hardware ??

Gentlemen, returning from my holiday/vacation I found a couple of packages behind the door, one contained the said "Imperial U-Boat badge" that started this thread, as it is now to hand , I have taken more images.....a beautiful badge indeed, frosted/dull finish with burnished highlights, difficult to catch on a photograph, but never the less I have tried to show this finish, I doubt that a "faker" would go this trouble to finish off his wares, and to fit the flimsy hardware that is upon this piece......do these fixtures/finish add upto an "Assmann" piece ?
comments please.................
Prost ! Steve.