FRAME SHARING BY GODET AND WAGNER - 1870 SERIES
In a recent thread, member morel5000 (Michel) asked if it was possible to identify the maker of his 1870 EK2 by its frame (rather than simply by its core).
Here is the thread.. 1870 ek2 A - Question
This of course is a common question and one you'd think we should be able to answer by now, but despite some early enthusiasm in a couple of older threads, the research into this has always stalled at the early stages. I am probably not alone in always intending to investigate the frames of these prized EK's further - I know my good friend Trevor has also mentioned the prospect.
Despite it sounding like a relatively simple exercise (comparing one makers frame with another and finding a simple match or not) the undertaking is huge. In looking at beading patterns, we are studying the minutae of a characteristic that is the width of a pin. There is a fairly small number of images circulating among the various forums of maker marked 1870 EK1's to reference and - trust me - a VASTLY smaller number of QUALITY images that are even remotely usable at magnification.
This is something you only truly discover when you make a fairly bold claim and then find you have to substantiate it!!
I have no doubt that like their third reich cousins, the central inner corners of 1870 EK's were on occasion filed down very slightly (rounded) to better accomodate the 'W'. There are tiny beading distortions and deformities presumably thrown up during the frame pressing process and of course, EK's are assembled randomly by hand from a pile of pre-pressed frames and cores. All this plays havoc with conclusively pinning down an EK frame using it's most prominant and immediate distinguishing feature - the four central inner corners. Rotate an EK 90 degrees or 270 degrees and you may have a matching frame - fail to line it up correctly and you are convinced you are looking at two totally different frames.
When you consider also that at least 70% of the pool of available images of genuine maker marked Godet or Wagner EK1's have frames SO worn they are indeterminable, the task becomes.... tricky. I myself own three of the four known types we are about to study and while my Godet EK1 is sharp, the frames on both my Wagners are so worn, they are essentially useless to this discussion. Handy.
Anyway, enough of the excuses, I'm sure you get the picture.
Rather than posting some sort of definitive 'article' I will simply open the discussion here using what images I can to try and illustrate why I believe the SAME frames were in use by both GODET and WAGNER in at least some of their 1870 EK's and therefore, establishing the maker of an unmarked 1870 EK1 or EK2 cannot be reliably done by comapring frames OR cores. (I won't cover the 'LL' marked crosses (Lauer/Lemcke) in the early stages, primarily because images of them are so hard to come by, but we should definitely explore them later in this thread).
The Background
We have many experienced members here (and on other forums) who already know that both Godet and Wagner used the same 'A' type Berlin Foundry produced CORE in a selection their respective EK1's, but we also have newcomers so some of this early stuff will not be news to many of you. I think it needs to be laid out though so everyone who contributes to this thread is referencing the right information and using the same terminology. Further reading on core types can be found in Mike Estelmann's excellent artcle BDOS Article - 1870 EK's
The Cross Types
For obvious reasons, the primary references here will only be to genuine, identifiable and maker marked FIRST CLASS crosses by both Wagner and Godet.
GODET used two very distinctive cores on their maker marked crosses, commonly referred to now as the 'A' type (left) and the 'B' type (right).
Genuine Wagner marked EK1's are also found with two core types, the familiar 'A' Type (left) and the deluxe and impressive looking 'A1' Type (right)
NOTE: It is worth noting now for newcomers to the 1870 EK1 field that to date - and to my knowledge - no GODET marked EK1 has ever been found with an 'A1' type core and no WAGNER marked EK1 has been found with a 'B' type core. It is known that 'LL' marked 1870 EK1's are also found with the 'B' type cores, so while we should refrian from definitively stating the 'B' type core is a GODET production, it is EXTREMELY likely that this is the case.
The Question?
DID GODET AND WAGNER SHARE THE 'TYPE 1' FRAME IN THEIR EK1's
The 1870 EK2 that prompted me to finally get this thread underway was posted by Michel (Morel5000) and his photo of the central junction highlighted a fairly distinctive 'footprint' which - for want of a better term - I'll refer to from here on as the 'Type 1' frame. Of note is the almost 'alphabetic' looking structure of these inner corners - top left and bottom left looking rather like an 'h' and an 'E', top right is a fairly distinctive looking 'half moon' and bottom right, something akin to a 'u'. I wont be offended if the nickname 'The Alpahabet Frame' doesn't stick...
Below is the photo of the EK2 Michel posted... and next to it, the 4 distinctive inner corners of the 'Type 1' Frame are highlighted.
The EK1 frames themselves presumably have no fixed orientation reference - meaning that in assembley, there is no 'lug' or 'eyelet' integral to the frame that dictates a frames top, bottom or side. As an example of how rotation needs to be factored in, Trevor's lovely unmarked EK1 on the left is clearly a frame match to the EK2 on the right, but only when rotated 180 degrees as illustrated here...
And again below, this time a pretty salty unmarked 'B' type EK1, which with a bit of rotation so the half moon shaped bead is top right, we can see is clearly a Type 1 (Alphabet) frame.
The Answer?
So I'll keep it to a simple observation and qualify it with this statement:
Commonly known is that there is more than one frame type used in 1870 EK1 production (GODET for example used at least two that I can identify, one is the Type 1 'Alphabet' frame, the other distinctly different) and no doubt we'll cover that as things are further explored. I'm too tired.
I am by no means suggesting that ALL WAGNER's EK1 frames are Type 1 - there are anomalies and differences that I just can't explain and I look forward to exploring those further with you guys. That may be due to image quality, my inability to match the rotation correctly due to deformed beading or too much wear, or sleep deprivation but I will state now that I believe the following GODET and WAGNER maker marked crosses all share the same Type 1 'Alphabet' frame, which I'm lead to believe would be relatively new information to many collectors of 1870 EK's.
That is:
A GODET marked 'B' type (below)
A GODET marked 'A' Type (below)
... and a WAGNER marked A1 type (below)
As I said in Michels thread, "One swallow does not make a Summer" - I was hoping to find a trend rather than simply a few one-off anomalies, but I can't yet. I freely admit to having enormous difficulty finding more than one image of each that I could post for you guys to give feedback on. Predictably, the most interesting one (the Wagner with the A1 core) is quite possibly the worst photograph ever taken and yet it's the one I'm forced to use. I did try and contact the owner (Reservist1) for something better, but to no avail.
Nonetheless, the bead counts seem to match up and I hope I've extracted enough detail from other shots provided of these three specific crosses to show a 'Type 1' Alphabet frame in use by both the top two manufacturers of the 1870 Iron Cross.
In the order they are shown above,
The GODET marked B type:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The GODET marked A Type
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And the WAGNER marked A1 Type
If you guys think we have a match here, then we are in business, if not now's the time to say so! I am completely open to interpretation - we are all here to learn - the further I got into this endeavour, the more I learn't. What I learn't most unfortunately was that some forum members are SERIOUSLY lagging behind in the technology curve and could do worse things than invest in a decent freakin camera!!!
If we are agreed about a match, I have plenty of other interesting stuff - unmarked A1 cores (which HAVE to be made by WAGNER) with the same 'Type 1' Alphabet frames, Godets with different frames but most interesting to me was this...
I have an extensive library of reference photos but I could not find a single WAGNER marked 1870 EK1 with an 'A' type core (the 'A' type, not the 'A1') that also had this Type 1 Alphabet frame. That doesn't mean they don't exist, I just couldn't find one.
There could be something in that - hopefully we will see.
Really appreciate your comments and hopefully we can finally nail this whole frame thing once and for all.
Cheers for reading!
Marshall
In a recent thread, member morel5000 (Michel) asked if it was possible to identify the maker of his 1870 EK2 by its frame (rather than simply by its core).
Here is the thread.. 1870 ek2 A - Question
This of course is a common question and one you'd think we should be able to answer by now, but despite some early enthusiasm in a couple of older threads, the research into this has always stalled at the early stages. I am probably not alone in always intending to investigate the frames of these prized EK's further - I know my good friend Trevor has also mentioned the prospect.
Despite it sounding like a relatively simple exercise (comparing one makers frame with another and finding a simple match or not) the undertaking is huge. In looking at beading patterns, we are studying the minutae of a characteristic that is the width of a pin. There is a fairly small number of images circulating among the various forums of maker marked 1870 EK1's to reference and - trust me - a VASTLY smaller number of QUALITY images that are even remotely usable at magnification.
This is something you only truly discover when you make a fairly bold claim and then find you have to substantiate it!!
I have no doubt that like their third reich cousins, the central inner corners of 1870 EK's were on occasion filed down very slightly (rounded) to better accomodate the 'W'. There are tiny beading distortions and deformities presumably thrown up during the frame pressing process and of course, EK's are assembled randomly by hand from a pile of pre-pressed frames and cores. All this plays havoc with conclusively pinning down an EK frame using it's most prominant and immediate distinguishing feature - the four central inner corners. Rotate an EK 90 degrees or 270 degrees and you may have a matching frame - fail to line it up correctly and you are convinced you are looking at two totally different frames.
When you consider also that at least 70% of the pool of available images of genuine maker marked Godet or Wagner EK1's have frames SO worn they are indeterminable, the task becomes.... tricky. I myself own three of the four known types we are about to study and while my Godet EK1 is sharp, the frames on both my Wagners are so worn, they are essentially useless to this discussion. Handy.
Anyway, enough of the excuses, I'm sure you get the picture.
Rather than posting some sort of definitive 'article' I will simply open the discussion here using what images I can to try and illustrate why I believe the SAME frames were in use by both GODET and WAGNER in at least some of their 1870 EK's and therefore, establishing the maker of an unmarked 1870 EK1 or EK2 cannot be reliably done by comapring frames OR cores. (I won't cover the 'LL' marked crosses (Lauer/Lemcke) in the early stages, primarily because images of them are so hard to come by, but we should definitely explore them later in this thread).
The Background
We have many experienced members here (and on other forums) who already know that both Godet and Wagner used the same 'A' type Berlin Foundry produced CORE in a selection their respective EK1's, but we also have newcomers so some of this early stuff will not be news to many of you. I think it needs to be laid out though so everyone who contributes to this thread is referencing the right information and using the same terminology. Further reading on core types can be found in Mike Estelmann's excellent artcle BDOS Article - 1870 EK's
The Cross Types
For obvious reasons, the primary references here will only be to genuine, identifiable and maker marked FIRST CLASS crosses by both Wagner and Godet.
GODET used two very distinctive cores on their maker marked crosses, commonly referred to now as the 'A' type (left) and the 'B' type (right).
Genuine Wagner marked EK1's are also found with two core types, the familiar 'A' Type (left) and the deluxe and impressive looking 'A1' Type (right)
NOTE: It is worth noting now for newcomers to the 1870 EK1 field that to date - and to my knowledge - no GODET marked EK1 has ever been found with an 'A1' type core and no WAGNER marked EK1 has been found with a 'B' type core. It is known that 'LL' marked 1870 EK1's are also found with the 'B' type cores, so while we should refrian from definitively stating the 'B' type core is a GODET production, it is EXTREMELY likely that this is the case.
The Question?
DID GODET AND WAGNER SHARE THE 'TYPE 1' FRAME IN THEIR EK1's
The 1870 EK2 that prompted me to finally get this thread underway was posted by Michel (Morel5000) and his photo of the central junction highlighted a fairly distinctive 'footprint' which - for want of a better term - I'll refer to from here on as the 'Type 1' frame. Of note is the almost 'alphabetic' looking structure of these inner corners - top left and bottom left looking rather like an 'h' and an 'E', top right is a fairly distinctive looking 'half moon' and bottom right, something akin to a 'u'. I wont be offended if the nickname 'The Alpahabet Frame' doesn't stick...
Below is the photo of the EK2 Michel posted... and next to it, the 4 distinctive inner corners of the 'Type 1' Frame are highlighted.
The EK1 frames themselves presumably have no fixed orientation reference - meaning that in assembley, there is no 'lug' or 'eyelet' integral to the frame that dictates a frames top, bottom or side. As an example of how rotation needs to be factored in, Trevor's lovely unmarked EK1 on the left is clearly a frame match to the EK2 on the right, but only when rotated 180 degrees as illustrated here...
And again below, this time a pretty salty unmarked 'B' type EK1, which with a bit of rotation so the half moon shaped bead is top right, we can see is clearly a Type 1 (Alphabet) frame.
The Answer?
So I'll keep it to a simple observation and qualify it with this statement:
Commonly known is that there is more than one frame type used in 1870 EK1 production (GODET for example used at least two that I can identify, one is the Type 1 'Alphabet' frame, the other distinctly different) and no doubt we'll cover that as things are further explored. I'm too tired.
I am by no means suggesting that ALL WAGNER's EK1 frames are Type 1 - there are anomalies and differences that I just can't explain and I look forward to exploring those further with you guys. That may be due to image quality, my inability to match the rotation correctly due to deformed beading or too much wear, or sleep deprivation but I will state now that I believe the following GODET and WAGNER maker marked crosses all share the same Type 1 'Alphabet' frame, which I'm lead to believe would be relatively new information to many collectors of 1870 EK's.
That is:
A GODET marked 'B' type (below)
A GODET marked 'A' Type (below)
... and a WAGNER marked A1 type (below)
As I said in Michels thread, "One swallow does not make a Summer" - I was hoping to find a trend rather than simply a few one-off anomalies, but I can't yet. I freely admit to having enormous difficulty finding more than one image of each that I could post for you guys to give feedback on. Predictably, the most interesting one (the Wagner with the A1 core) is quite possibly the worst photograph ever taken and yet it's the one I'm forced to use. I did try and contact the owner (Reservist1) for something better, but to no avail.
Nonetheless, the bead counts seem to match up and I hope I've extracted enough detail from other shots provided of these three specific crosses to show a 'Type 1' Alphabet frame in use by both the top two manufacturers of the 1870 Iron Cross.
In the order they are shown above,
The GODET marked B type:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The GODET marked A Type
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And the WAGNER marked A1 Type
If you guys think we have a match here, then we are in business, if not now's the time to say so! I am completely open to interpretation - we are all here to learn - the further I got into this endeavour, the more I learn't. What I learn't most unfortunately was that some forum members are SERIOUSLY lagging behind in the technology curve and could do worse things than invest in a decent freakin camera!!!
If we are agreed about a match, I have plenty of other interesting stuff - unmarked A1 cores (which HAVE to be made by WAGNER) with the same 'Type 1' Alphabet frames, Godets with different frames but most interesting to me was this...
I have an extensive library of reference photos but I could not find a single WAGNER marked 1870 EK1 with an 'A' type core (the 'A' type, not the 'A1') that also had this Type 1 Alphabet frame. That doesn't mean they don't exist, I just couldn't find one.
There could be something in that - hopefully we will see.
Really appreciate your comments and hopefully we can finally nail this whole frame thing once and for all.
Cheers for reading!
Marshall
.
(almost certainly exclusively GODET's) - but to start that up here and now would just baffle everyone I'm sure, so for the time being, I've probably done all I can here.
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