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**Darrell** · 08-24-2008, 11:50 AM

Originally posted by Richard Gordon View Post

As you know, much has been written and speculated about when the PKZ codes were introduced.

Check out this post where an EK clearly marked '65' was dug up near Stalingrad. Surely, this is important to help establish that the PKZ codes were introduced much earlier than thought?

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...&postcount=290

There wouldn't have been any German troops in the area after Feb 1943. Therefore one must consider that PKZ were in use in 1943.

Rich

Not questioning the credibility of the find (or the post on that thread), but I'm always a bit of a sceptic when it comes to any ground dug item ... especially one from Russia

Too many end up being just run of the mill items made to look ground dug and sold at many times the value in it's original state simply because it was found at a "famous" battle field.

**Dietrich Maerz** · 08-24-2008, 02:41 PM

Hi Richard,

there are very strong and indisputable indications that the PKZ numbers were already in use in 1943. I would not go as far to say February 43 at this point in time.
Sure is in my mind one thing.: the presence of PKZ numbers has something to do with the medal type itself and the speed of issuing medals already on stock.

However, it is also very important not to base any conclusion on just one document or "find" alone. If that would be so the PKZ numbers were already in use in mid 1942. This unsubstantiated conclusion would be based on an August 42 awarded K&Q marked "65" - if one believes the COA (dated 02/08!!!) of a very well known Hamburg dealer.

Dietrich

**Flemming** · 08-24-2008, 04:05 PM

I have this DKiG:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=184183
And that should have been awarded on 10th of November 1942...it is attributed to :
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD colSpan=2>Rank: </TD><TD>Oberleutnant </TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top colSpan=2>Unit: </TD><TD>1.(F)/Nacht-Aufklärungsstaffel </TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>Received on: </TD><TD>10 November 1942</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

And it has a MM 1.

Just my 2 cents regarding the PKZ timeline.

/Flemming

**Rich G** · 08-25-2008, 04:28 AM

I understand then need to be careful and of course one item does not make it conclusive. However, there have been many examples of PKZ marked awards appearing groups that do have credible history, ie coming directly from the family and in the 1943 range (or earlier). Again, difficult to prove but cannot be discounted.

What is the earliest known dates as far as official documents?

Rich

**Andreas Klein** · 08-25-2008, 05:25 AM

Hello Richard,

imo the earliest use of the PKZ number which can clearly dated without discussions is the "65" in 1942.

Imo the PKZ number started shortly after the 01.03.1941.

**Steve Campbell** · 08-25-2008, 05:51 AM

Couldn't the dug wound badge been dropped by a Russian soldier who got it in another theatre of war later on, and lost it in Stalingrad at the end of the war? Or even after the war? Theoretically, it could have happened.

**Dietrich Maerz** · 08-25-2008, 06:39 AM

Originally posted by ak72 View Post

Hello Richard,
imo the earliest use of the PKZ number which can clearly dated without discussions is the "65" in 1942.
Imo the PKZ number started shortly after the 01.03.1941.

Could you post the evidence for this please?

Dietrich

**Andreas Klein** · 08-25-2008, 07:38 AM

Hello Dietrich,

please look at the following black WB which shows us 3 informations:

1. K&Q which is Klein&Quenzer

2. 65, the PKZ Code for them

3. 42, the year 1942

Attached Files

65_Schwarz_Eisen_KQ markiert-1083.jpg (121.7 KB, 237 views)

**Dietrich Maerz** · 08-25-2008, 08:06 AM

Is the 42 stamped?

**Andreas Klein** · 08-25-2008, 08:16 AM

No, all 3 markings are raised and part of the die.

**Dietrich Maerz** · 08-25-2008, 08:26 AM

If the "42" really means the year 1942 then this is good evidence that at least Klein & Quenzer already had a PKZ number in 1942 and was using it. And I would certainly think that if K&Q had one all the others before him also had one.

**Andreas Klein** · 08-25-2008, 08:32 AM

Originally posted by Dietrich Maerz View Post

And I would certainly think that if K&Q had one all the others before him also had one.

I agree and we will show in the WB book that alot more makers had and used their PKZ code around 1941/1942 so my personal opinion is that the PKZ code started shortly around the 01.03.1941 when we have the official rules where to place maker markings on the badges.

**Dietrich Maerz** · 08-25-2008, 09:06 AM

If the PKZ code was prescribed shortly after March 1941 why are there a lot of unmarked (or LDO marked) Knights Crosses and German Crosses? And even unmarked RKs from K&Q?

Do the other Wound Badges with PKZ marks also have a year on them as part of the die? And where is the proof that the "42" is the year and not a die number, department number or other identifier? I am not saying it is not but I am also not saying it is.

**Andreas Klein** · 08-25-2008, 09:25 AM

Dietrich,

imo the 42 as symbol for the year 1942 is according to the rules of logic - what else should it be?

I don't know why there are unmarked badges outthere too ... if you ask for my personal opinion i would say these are finished stocks which didn't get markings and subcontracts.

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